This episode is a live recording of a panel discussion that took place during New York City Climate Week 2024 hosted in collaboration with Diana from the Palma Podcast. The panel brought together climate podcast hosts to discuss the power of audio & multimedia storytelling to increase awareness of climate solutions. The conversation explores nuances of crafting impactful climate storytelling through podcasting by going behind-the-scenes with climate podcasters, whose expertise spans climate justice, energy, and culture. Enjoy this live podcast recording of leading environmental advocates and storytellers and for an enriching conversation about the power of media and storytelling.
This episode is a live recording of a panel discussion that took place during New York City Climate Week 2024 hosted in collaboration with Diana from the Palma Podcast. The panel brought together climate podcast hosts to discuss the power of audio & multimedia storytelling to increase awareness of climate solutions. The conversation explores nuances of crafting impactful climate storytelling through podcasting by going behind-the-scenes with climate podcasters, whose expertise spans climate justice, energy, and culture. Enjoy this live podcast recording of leading environmental advocates and storytellers and for an enriching conversation about the power of media and storytelling.
Featuring: Aiko Schaefer, Arielle King, Diana Bunge, Kristy Drutman
Hosted & Produced by Kiana Michaan and Diana Bunge
Edited and Engineered by Lucy Little
For resources and more information about the guests: https://www.climatewithkiana.com/podcast/s2-climate-week-panel
Kiana Michaan: [00:00:00] Welcome to Climate with Kiana, a podcast about climate solutions shared through a framework of joy and justice. I'm your host, Kiana Michaan, a solar and clean energy advocate passionate about just climate action. This season, let's dig deeper into solutions to the climate crisis through inspiring conversations with climate experts who are leading important and innovative work.
to shape a more just and sustainable world. Let's cultivate hope and joy by exploring these climate solutions and visioning new possibilities together.
This episode is a special live recording of a panel discussion that took place during New York City Climate Week at Marketplace of the Future. I had the pleasure of hosting and moderating this panel in collaboration with Diana, host of the Palma podcast.
Thank you to Diana and to [00:01:00] Marketplace of the Future for making this episode possible. The topic of the panel discussion is Accelerating Impact through Climate Storytelling and Podcasting. The panel brought together several amazing climate podcast hosts to discuss the storytelling process and And the power of media to increase awareness of climate solutions.
It is a pleasure to share with you this conversation that features Diana Bunge, host of the Palma podcast, Aiko Schaefer, host of the Just Solutions podcast, Arielle King, host of the Joy Report podcast, and Kristy Drutman, host of the Brown Girl Green podcast. Enjoy this live panel recording on accelerating impact through climate storytelling and podcasting.
Diana Bunge: Well, thank you everyone so much for coming out. I know that this is meant to be a relaxing time, some decompressing. Um, I'm sure everyone has had a very busy climate week. [00:02:00] So I think we just really wanted to take this time to sort of, um, Reflect and have a really casual conversation about the future of podcasting and this is kind of a live podcasting event, which is really cool.
Um, so thank you to the panelists for being here. I know it's been a really, really busy week. Um, so thank you so much for your time and your energy. Thank you Kiana for, um, reaching out and wanting to collaborate. This is super exciting. Um, so with that, I'll, I'll pass it over to Kiana.
Kiana Michaan: Thank you all for being here.
Thank you, Diana. I'll reiterate a little bit of what you said, but appreciate you all being here on a rainy Sunday. It's been a incredible climate week and I know we're all a little bit tired. I am losing my voice a teeny bit, although it sounds better than yesterday, so you might hear that. Thanks for, thanks for bearing with me.
Um, and really excited to have this, this cozy [00:03:00] conversation with you all. Um, Diana and I were chatting, chatting about podcasting and climate podcasting and, and had this idea to bring this conversation to you during climate week. And I am thrilled to be joined by incredible, incredible podcast hosts and leaders in the climate justice space.
And we are going to chat about the impact of podcasting and storytelling specifically to further climate action, um, and climate justice. Excited to get into this. With that, I'm going to pass it to each of you to, um, introduce yourself. Truly, I'm deeply inspired by all of your work, so I will pass it to each of you to introduce yourself, the podcast that you host, and a little bit also about your broader work in the climate justice space.
Aiko, feel free to kick us off.
Aiko Schaefer: Is this on? Am I on? All right. Good to see everyone today. [00:04:00] Again, Diana and Kiana, thanks so much for organizing this. Um, my name is Aiko Schaefer. I use she, her pronouns. I am the executive director of Just Solutions, and I'm the host of the podcast, Just Solutions Podcast. And so we really look at, um, solutions at the intersection or I should say we look at, uh, equitable and just solutions, hence the name and really bring forward people who are out in the world, um, making things happen.
People who are experts in research policy, just to help us all not only be able to replicate and identify good solutions, but to hopefully be inspired and figure out how to do those things in our own communities.
Arielle King: Thank you. Hi, everyone. My name is Arielle King. Uh, I'm an environmental justice educator and strategist and I'm the host of the joy report podcast through intersectional environmentalist.
Um, it is a podcast all about positive climate solutions, grounded in intersectionality and environmental justice. Um, we [00:05:00] kind of came into this work and I feel like we'll get into this a bit more, but. Out of the desire to combat climate doomism and the fear and anxiety that is all wrapped up into what could happen if we don't take action.
And so like trying to create a clear antidote and clear accessible ways that our listeners can get involved in the climate movement, um, to be able to. Contribute to collective action and yeah, so it's a little about me. Thank you.
Kristy Drutman: Okay Okay Hi everyone Hi everyone. My name is Kristy drutman. I am the host and founder of the brown girl green podcast Um, i'm also known on social media as brown girl green.
It's been a long climate week So, please know that on the podcast. My voice does not sound this raspy, but it is maybe a decibel lower And, um, I would say that my show is [00:06:00] really focused about my journey, um, as a young woman of color, kind of learning about how to take action on the climate crisis. And I do that through interviews with incredible, um, black and brown leaders, primarily, um, to learn about the climate solutions that they're leading in their communities and around the world with the hope that, you know, I'm also inspiring a lot of, um, You know, inspiration and solutions, uh, and positivity to and invest in the next generation and want to take action on the climate crisis.
Diana Bunge: Amazing. And I'm Diana. I am the host of Palma. Um, the podcast really, originated from wanting to talk about climate and culture, as well as storytelling. And I try and elevate Latin female voices in the climate space. Um, and really it, it came out, the genesis was, um, during my master's, I felt really Inspired by taking conversations out of the classroom and continuing to hold space for [00:07:00] everything from, you know, fashion to um, should we have kids when it comes to thinking about the The climate crisis and just everything wrapped up in how climate change is affecting our lives Um, so really excited to be here and thank you guys so much
Kiana Michaan: amazing um, I You I want to hear more about, you've each shared a little bit about your shows, but for those who haven't listened, um, I think a little bit more about what inspired you to start the show.
And I think what's really beautiful is that each of your shows have really unique, distinctive styles and voices, um, and just having more voices of women of color. I think leading storytelling and climate education is so important. So share, could you share a little bit more about. the style of your, how you approach storytelling and sharing through your shows, um, and how you [00:08:00] feel that your podcast supports your broader climate work as well.
Kristy Drutman: I can start. Um, yeah, so, you know, Brown Girl Green came out of, I was actually just talking about this earlier, it came out of a school project. It was like my last semester of college at UC Berkeley. Um, and I realized, like, I just really wanted to. feature the voices of more people of color leading in the climate space.
I felt really frustrated at that point that I just didn't see many people who look like me in the space. And on top of that, I just figured maybe, um, interviewing experts, um, in the space could maybe lead me to finding my first job. Uh, so I kind of used it as a networking tool, to be honest with you, um, because I was told that, like, podcasting could be a way that, like, you could either, like, get clients or you could, um, you know, find a mentor, and I was told those are all good things when you're, like, finishing college.
So, for full transparency, I [00:09:00] was like, I want to learn, but I also was like, maybe I can get a job out of this. And so, I was, um, Yeah, I was interviewing really incredible folks that were leading, um, DEI efforts specifically. So I was, I was looking for who is the DEI person at every environmental organization, um, that I really admired.
And I just like, kind of just like cold called, emailed them and just wanted to see like, would anyone be interested in like talking about why is diversity and inclusion important in the environmental space? And that's kind of how it started out was talking about like, what are the strategies your organization is doing?
How are you addressing it? Yeah. And then it evolved over time from it being just about like Jedi or justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion. So then actually being like, well, what if we dove deeper into the actual stories of people's lives instead of just like how organizations could shift. And so I'd say the show kind of transformed into me going into a journey of like, Wanting to interview different leaders in the space on, you know, how did you get into this work?
But also like what sustains you [00:10:00] in the work? Why is your solution when people should know about and kind of just wanting to interview people about things that I didn't know about and really making sure that my interview style format was like Talking to people in a way that like like a five to ten year old could understand it And so, in my show, I make a point that like, if I interview a guest, if they say a term or an acronym, I make sure they define it.
I make sure that they say what that is. Um, and if it doesn't make sense to me, I say it in pretty layman's terms. Like, I don't act like, oh, I know what you said. Like, if I don't get it, I'll be like, wait, what does that mean? Or like, can you rephrase that? Because I know that's like what listeners probably are also processing as they're learning the information.
So like I said at a second ago, my show is really about Um making it really accessible to talk about really dense Kind of difficult topics related to climate and how to make sure that voices of color are prioritized in that[00:11:00]
Arielle King: um, so I Was approached to host my podcast. Um, so the organization intersectional environmentalist, they were seeking opportunities to, um, expand out their environmental education work. And so, um, all they had at the time was a name for the organism or for the podcast and an idea that it was going to be about positive climate solutions.
Um, and so when they approached me, it just made sense and it, it really aligned with. I guess my general ethos as I like approach the world, I believe that like joy is a choice and it's an opportunity for us to, um, build community and to re imagine the world in a more loving and, um, heart centered, compassionate way and to seek solutions that are grounded and guided by like people of color.
And so, um, the Joy Report is a scripted podcast. We don't do interviews, um, so far in What we're producing. And in [00:12:00] this scripted podcast, I always make sure to add context to whatever the solutions are. And so, um, each. Episode is focused on one particular solution. Um, and the main story always showcases a solution that is driven by, um, a person or community or organization of color, um, to showcase the fact that solutions already exist, um, to combat the climate crisis, they generally just need to be scaled up and we need to redistribute, uh, resources and funding in a way that is more equitable to create the solutions that we so desperately So yeah,
Aiko Schaefer: so we're at this, I think, very interesting moment in time where we are seeing, um, our policymakers begin to really pass laws to address climate injustice.
Um, and you're seeing that here in the U S obviously conversations that are moving along internationally. And at the same time, we have more and more scientists and researchers who are BIPOC [00:13:00] and BIPOC women. And so the creation of just solutions as a national organization was really to begin to provide and coalesce our understanding of what those solutions are that were created for community by community.
And so what are those policy designs? What is the research leading research out there and to be able to support communities on the ground to have the assistance they need to be stronger advocates. And so the podcast was a real natural extension of that. And so A lot of what, um, the purpose of this show is, um, selfishly I get to do the show.
So as executive director, I get to have some fun talking, uh, about the topics and, and programs and to be inspired by the guests. But really it's to me personally, I think my interest in doing this is that when you think about who the climate expert is, I think that people do think about White male scientists.
Um, and for me, those shows [00:14:00] when I can bring a black woman climate scientist that's working in Mississippi or to be able to, uh, find someone who has been, you know, advocating in their state capitals to really pass amazing progressive policy change or to take Apron. Decisions that have been made in Washington, D. C.
And really help people understand what does that mean for your community? How is that impact going to actually happen? So I think it's really both trying to elevate a different, um, person as the X as who is the expert, who is a climate expert, but to also bring that information so that people who are listening can think about how they could actually replicate those ideas and how they might actually construct them.
And ultimately, yeah. Because there's a nonprofit connected to it that allows them to find people. Um, our staff as a national policy and research organization is majority BIPOC. Um, we have a lot of, uh, majority of our staff grew up in environmental justice communities. A lot of them [00:15:00] are first generation college students who have advanced degrees, PhDs, master's degrees, law degrees, who are able to bring both that lived experience and that traditional academic training.
Combined with our partnership and work that we're doing with communities all across the country. So it's just a way for us as an organization to, to also advance our resources and to be able to, um, elevate, um, the sense that there are lots and lots of climate experts out there. And that we think that that expertise first and foremost has to come from community and has to be led by community.
Diana Bunge: Yeah, I kind of, I would love to come back to that because there's so much richness in what everyone has said here. Sure. I think one of the things that we've been sort of talking about is who gets to tell those stories, especially in podcasting, because as small independent podcasts, sometimes like you're allowed to have the conversations that in other podcasts, they [00:16:00] might, you know, stay away from depending on, you know, who's funding or there's, there's more of a, um, And crafting of the narrative.
And so I think what's really important is being able to tell the stories that oftentimes aren't really seen. Um, and I've seen that within my own work of, of diving deeper because I've been astounded through some of the work that I've done. Uh, how many people are in the climate space? Like, sometimes it feels like you're in this bubble, but a lot of times there's so many people that are doing the work.
And so being able to elevate those voices is, is really amazing. So
Kiana Michaan: I want to dig deeper into many things that were just said. I think what's incredible about podcasting as a medium is it's, you know, the democratization of access to information through the internet and anyone can start a podcast. Which is great, but also [00:17:00] not great sometimes, and you know, there's, I think, over like 135 monthly listeners of podcasts in the U.
S., and listenership is going up among young people, among people of color, so it is an incredible tool to reach people. Um, my question is, how do you combat misinformation and disinformation, which is already so kind of rampant in the climate space. Um, and then even within the podcasting space, right?
Credibility. Um, I know some of your shows are tied directly to organizations, which But yeah, kind of the responsibility of storytelling when you're bringing perspectives that are not often uplifted in a space in which it's hard to have these voices and stories heard. How are you thinking about that sort of in the process?
I know, so it's a big question, but[00:18:00]
Arielle King: I feel like, um, As someone who maybe like considers myself an expert in fields, like I believe in citing my sources, right? And I believe that like, it is my duty to tell the truth, right? And I, um, Kimberly Crenshaw talks about how we are in the midst of a war on truth right now, like where there is like this, like out onslaught of like misinformation and information that is like actively seeking to oppose.
Truth and fact. And I think, um, it is our responsibility and our duty to combat that with our words, with the platforms that we have built. Um, and so like the way that we do that through the joy report is we do very extensive research ahead of each episode. Um, that's partially because it is scripted, right?
So like we want to be able to tell a full story, um, and to consider the [00:19:00] perspectives and the pushback that we might receive from listeners. Um, if we're like voicing an opinion that might be new. Um, and so I think it's like really important in, in my work as a podcaster to, um, just be grounded in truth, understand all sides of a scenario and of a perspective, um, and use that, uh, to further whatever point you're trying to get across.
Aiko Schaefer: Yeah. I think. For us, um, our information is one sided, um, and it's the side that is not elevated. It's a side that's not really included in the mainstream conversation. So, and I think that's what all of our shows do, right? We're really about this, this perspective, these voices that are not in, in the mainstream conversation.
Um, and I think not to say that, I mean, I think misinformation is highly problematic. I think that part of what, um, is important is that, um, we are building a community of people [00:20:00] who our listeners can turn to and see as trusted sources, not just us, right? I feel like I'm just a conduit to guide people to great places.
And And hopefully we are part of facilitating more critical thinking, right? I know for me, as much as I am one sided in my perspective as the host, the idea is for people to have some critical thinking. Our listeners, I think, um, our, our audience is really geared towards, um, frontline environmental justice, uh, committed and oriented advocates.
But I know that we have other people on the show who may not agree with what we talk about. However, we hope that those listeners open up to another perspective. And so I think part of it is having that discourse. So the challenge with misinformation is that it is more of a propaganda strategy. And for us, it's, it's to embrace that.
value of critical thinking to [00:21:00] allow people to try to absorb. So when I think about a topic, um, it's not just the describing of the topic or the introduction to the work, but I feel like I try to channel the listeners about where are the soft spots? Like, where can I push? Where can I pull? So that at the end of the show, all of us are, have moved along, versus I have someone who I just, you know, Uh, have invited because I want them to convince all of our listeners of a certain perspective.
So I think if we go back to that orientation or that position of like, it's okay for us to, you know, deepen our thinking and have some disagreements, but for people to be open, then I feel good about the show, even though I hope that everyone lands where I am. It's not really the objective of what I'm trying to do.
Diana Bunge: I'd love to jump in here for a second. That piece about critical thinking is so important to part of like the ethos of my podcast because [00:22:00] I often felt that, right, like I was coming off the heels of being in a classroom setting and I often found that even within these intimate educational settings, people felt like they couldn't really share their perspective and there are so many questions involved with the climate transition and so my goal was Exactly what you said, not to convince people of something, but to ask more questions because at the end of the day, we, we don't even have all the answers yet.
And there are so many different facets of, of the energy transition and the climate, like just all of these different questions related to how we're going to get there from a technological perspective, from a cultural perspective. And so I wanted to feel like people could come into this space and ask questions and so that there's dialogue.
within this safe space because I feel like I don't even have all the answers, right? Like, and, and we're deeply involved in this work. So I think just [00:23:00] continuing to, to have critical thinking is like that underlying tone, um, is really important for, for me. Misinformation, everything.
Kiana Michaan: I think you all do a great job as climate experts of weaving in the joy and hope and pop culture in your show and lively conversations that just make it really engaging and fun to listen to.
Yet, you're still learning so much. How are you thinking about weaving in sort of the creativity, humor, joy, and optimism that keeps listeners engaged and have you experienced, you know, feedback from listeners that sharing kind of the joy, um, which we love in, in The Joy Report and, and in all of your shows that help foster community around climate action?
Arielle King: Um, I think before I answer that, I want to like add on to the last point, um, you know, such an [00:24:00] important part of environmental justice and climate justice work is helping cultivate self determination for the communities that are most impacted by these problems. And I feel like when you're providing Resources and opportunity and education, um, and avenues for people to learn more and learn processes and you are like contributing to that.
And so, yeah, I just thought it was important to, to add that there, I think accessibility is important. And I think like, Ultimately, people aren't gonna, like, want to listen if it's not fun or entertaining or engaging, right? Like, you know, when you have, like, countless options out there, um, you know, what sets you apart is how you deliver a message.
And so, um, for the Joy report, like, we focus on, like, telling positive climate stories because we have found that, like, So many young people are just like overcome with climate doom. Like for the first time in history, we are seeing psychologists now having to be trained [00:25:00] and how to deal with and support people through climate doomism.
Um, and we've also found that climate doom really stuns people into inaction. Right. And like, we just don't have time for that. And so like in order for us. to like effectively, um, move the needle and like invite people into this movement. Um, we incorporate music into the podcast and the stories are really positive and we like try to make it as like engaging as possible.
Um, and using like social media as like promotional material and kind of like working both of those together is helpful.
Kristy Drutman: Um, I started filming them in person. I think it made a big difference. I did my podcast virtually for many years, and then I decided to like start doing it in person and it just created a whole different energy to the conversation because I realized that like doing it virtually is great, but I think there's not you can't be.
You know, human [00:26:00] interaction, like face to face. And so when I started doing it and recording it in person with people and I actually started, actually, Kiki was on my podcast and came to my house here on the East Coast. And literally, like, I had to, like, set design my living room, and I just, like, kind of, like, set up the camera, and, like, had people just come over to my little, my little apartment.
Um, and these are people I'd never met before in person, but we knew each other through LinkedIn or, like, social media, who are incredible leaders in the environmental space. And all of a sudden, it went from, like, okay, yeah, like, these are incredible leaders, and they're well known for their work, and now they're, like, having tea with me at my house, and, like, are just, like, sitting on my couch, and we're, like, talking.
And I think there's something about that that I, it really, I really enjoy and is probably something I'm going to continue to, um, prioritize. And I only started doing that like in the past year. And I've had this show for like almost six years now at this point. Um, and I realized like, yeah, [00:27:00] those moments of like getting to like make eye contact with someone and laugh or like hug them.
Or like even cry during an episode and you getting to like, watch that. Um, cause we, I do record it like live on like, um, I use Riverside. And I know you were going to ask that later on, on what we use, but, um, yeah, I use Riverside. Um, and it's great. Cause I can like record live video as well as audio. Um, and so you actually get to see how I'm connecting with the person.
I think that creates a whole new element. I'm like, Oh, wow. This information seems really like. intense and academic, but like, oh, I actually see the person's face. Um, I'm actually getting to know them. I'm feeling like you two are connecting. I'm seeing your dynamic and it adds in this whole new element that makes you feel like you're also there and like you're a part of the conversation and like, it's not scary.
I'm not like, you're not alone and like that these experts, you know, are there to like help guide you through that too.
Diana Bunge: Yeah, I think we wanted to kind of talk a bit about the logistics of [00:28:00] podcasting, because it can feel really daunting. Like, do I have solo episodes? Do I have guest episodes? How do I incorporate music?
Um, like, do I have to understand like production and sound? And so I think, you know, we kind of already started talking about that, but I'd love to hear more about how that process has evolved, because I think sometimes you start to realize, you Um, you know, with some of your stats and just getting feedback from your listeners, like what works, what doesn't work.
Um, so maybe everyone can like go around and share a bit about that process.
Kristy Drutman: I can start again. Um, yeah, like when I was first starting out, like, you know, I bought my first microphone. I remember that being like so expensive. Like back then I was like, I did it right when I was graduating college. I remember even having like a hundred dollar microphone.
I was like, what? Like, that's like all my money for the month or something. Um, yeah, it was expensive, you know, and obviously like later on I learned [00:29:00] from, you know, pretty like professional people. It doesn't have to be that expensive. If you figure out the right, things, but at first it was like, Oh, if you really want to sound legit, you need to buy this microphone, you need to have this editing software and all these things.
Um, And yeah, I mean, I did it really DIY because I couldn't afford a podcast editor or producer, like, again, did this straight out of college. Um, and so, yeah, I was editing my own podcast myself, taking every micro edit and second, and I remember I would just like lock myself in my like college room in the dark.
And I said, you can't leave until you finish editing. And I remember that being so miserable and I hated it and it made me want to give up podcasting altogether because Taking out the ums and the, oh my god. I should remember those days. Never want to go back. Luckily now I have people who edit it. Um. But like, yeah, like when I was first starting out, I did that stuff by myself.
Went on the YouTubes, studied how to do it, and like now we have all these amazing AI tools and things to make your podcast editing so much faster and easier. Those things just didn't exist [00:30:00] back then. Um, and, but yeah, like, I would say that like, as time went on, like, I realized that, like, I was such a perfectionist starting out, though.
Like, like I said, was such a perfectionist that took me forever to release an episode. Um, and then I learned that, like, eventually I was like, you have to put out these episodes. And I was just really scrappy with it. I remember it was these incredible episodes, um, just about, like, you know, talking about, um, different incredible.
Black leaders like leading, um, you know, nature movements and like getting more folks in the outdoors. And I put those out there and I honestly thought it was terrible quality. Um, obviously I'm a perfectionist. I'm very hard on myself and they went viral. Like they got so many listens and like actually NYU put it in their official directory of like environmental justice education.
So like, it was crazy. Like I didn't expect that, but it was because I put, yeah. And I, I, and then I learned, I was like, wait, I could do this a bit scrappier. So I kind of like, yeah. I was like, okay, like, maybe I leave some um's in there, [00:31:00] maybe I don't have the best soundscape set design of like my show, but the content was good, and I realized like, and I learned that from content creation in general, like I'm a full time content creator outside of podcasting with video and blog, and I learned that like sometimes it's okay to just like put out the shitty thing, I don't know if you're allowed to say that, put out the not as great, put out the not as great, put out the not as great quality thing, um, um, Um, and I learned that and then I got faster at putting out the podcast where it was like, Okay, maybe I don't need to do an hour and a half.
I could do 30 minutes. Then I got to like 15 minutes because people's attention spans are short and if it's not going to be the best quality, maybe make it shorter. So actually, the show now is like way shorter than it was when I started out. I keep it now to like only like 30 minutes. 30 minutes max. Um, and I know it's not going to be like the best editing, but I know the content's good.
And so I've kind of like scrapped the idea of like, okay, my show is not going to be like the most professionally sounding, but I know [00:32:00] people are going to listen to it because they want the content. So I learned, so for me, at least that that has worked because I just have a really engaged audience online period.
And luckily the podcast has become just kind of like a side part of that. Whereas I know some people it's like, The podcast is their main thing and then they have to build out of that. Um, but for people out there that are like, burying their heads of like, format needs to be this long, whatever. I would say like, honestly start out short and then go to long form because I think if you start out short and you do that enough times, it'll reduce your like, perfectionism and barrier to entry to eventually get to like, a much longer in depth thing where you actually understand what is your tone, what is your voice, what is your format.
Okay, now we can go deeper rather than like, vice versa, in my opinion. That's my two cents.
Kiana Michaan: Clearly there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. You might hear a very polished episode and not seeing all the hours editing, hopefully not in the dark, but um, definitely challenges as shows that are completely independently [00:33:00] produced like some of ours.
Are I know, particularly when it comes to accessing funding to, um, and already like, you know, as a woman in media, but I'm very curious to hear also about Icon Ariel, your production processes, particularly since both of your shows are part of incredible environmental nonprofits and how having a little bit more of a team maybe changes what that production looks like for the shows.
Aiko Schaefer: That's a great question. There's no way I could do the podcast without an amazing team. Um, so Taylor Ward and Angel Bautista from our team really just do extraordinary work, um, on the sort of, you know, getting the speakers ready to the editing, um, to the promotion. And so for me, I get to sort of, um, you know, be the host and so I can focus on that.
And, and so for us, the, on your prior question, the podcast that seem to have the highest listeners, are the most nerdy podcasts we have. So the more technical, [00:34:00] the content for some reason, the more people want to listen to it. So when we talk about nuclear energy and environmental justice, we can talk about carbon capture and environmental justice.
Those are the ones that people want to listen to. And I think. I don't know why, but my guess part of it is that I am the least technical content person, uh, in our organization. My job is not necessarily know how all those pieces work, right? It's to run the organization. And so for me, when I'm on those shows and sort of the thinking of, of me hosting it, cause I was very resistant, um, this is not my thing to normally do.
And, um, I'm not necessarily the demographic that we're going for here, but. Um, because I think there's that sense that we have is just being very curious and when the techno technical experts come on, they're just things that I'm like, I don't really understand what that is. Like how does that work? And I feel like I get to ask all the sort of dumb questions, right?
The questions that people may be more afraid to ask [00:35:00] because it feels like we should be asking. Yeah. More knowledgeable about these things, which makes no sense, right? Who needs to be technically aware of how nuclear energy works? Like none of us really, but we need to understand when we do that, what does it mean for community?
You know, what are the potential implications? You know, what, what does it mean historically? What does it mean going forward? And so for me, I think part of that is that I get to ask someone and to try to move them from this very topic. technical in their brain space to the like, but tell me what does that mean to me today to us listening on the show?
And so somewhat, I think not being so, um, weighted by the production process allows me to have that sort of creative space. And so that's why I'm really grateful. Our nonprofit does not have any funding to do that. Do the podcast specifically. And I think we've talked about the downside is we are then subsequently bound by that.
Like I am dying to do a podcast before [00:36:00] election and I can't touch it as a charitable nonprofit. So there is the benefit of having some of that, you know, capacity and support, but I. We don't have the freedom per se, and it is sort of tied to the programmatic objective of the organization. So I think for us, we're really have been discussing like, what are the merits of it being independent?
What are the merits of it being connected to an institution with resources? It's a tough call.
Arielle King: That's interesting. Um, yeah, I, I think, um, one of the benefits that, especially in the beginning of being tied to an organization that has like a very large social media presence is that we could use the data from like specific topics to identify what we wanted our first season to be about, um, like, and so that almost guaranteed, um, like, higher engagement on those episodes because we already knew that that's what our audience liked.
Um, so that was extremely helpful. Um, and then in terms of [00:37:00] like actual production process, it's been like phenomenal to have like an audio engineer, um, who just like does that for us. Um, and, and, you know, having a producer whose job it is to like, Identify the ums and be like, okay, please like remove that from and so Um, I feel very fortunate that that has been my experience, but I will say that Because it's so polished it limits the amount of episodes that come out and so I think um we're always trying to figure out ways to like strike that balance in a more intentional way and try to be Timely with our issues.
Um and try even when we're not focusing an episode on an issue that is like extremely relevant to still include elements of relevant climate news in the episode, no matter what, um, because it's important for people to know things. Right. And so I think ultimately, um, the goal is to share and spread information and to empower people.
And so, uh, I feel like with. The organization, there are benefits. I think [00:38:00] doing it independently has benefits. I think seeking, uh, sponsors and funders for particular episodes is something that we've been exploring at IE. And so, um, we like for this, uh, second season, we've been working with keen, the like outdoor foot company, um, footwear company, um, to do some episodes on like circularity in textiles and like those types of things.
So, um, We found that that has been an interesting and unique opportunity to marry, like, maybe things that are aligned with a particular organization and things that we know that our audience really likes to learn about.
Kristy Drutman: Yeah, I want to add on to the idea of sponsorship because I have had experience with that.
Um, I really tried to figure out like how I could, um, you know, make sure my episodes didn't seem too addy. Um, but it was cool because there was a few organizations like Earth Justice and, um, Mercy Corps and a few other organizations that I've worked with [00:39:00] over the years where I was able to just explore doing like a multiple part series, um, and weave it into like a bigger content package where I was just like, okay, like I really want to dive into an experience.
an expert that's in your network, um, to both highlight the work, but to do it through proper storytelling rather than me just saying, okay, great. This episode is sponsored by this organization by their thing. Um, even though like, you know, there's a time and a place for that. And there's plenty of shows that do that.
I thought like, you know, organically weaving that in would be nice. And a lot of organizations were really down for that, which is really cool. Um, and I think it helped a lot because it was like, Oh, You know, the podcast is a bit more experimental, you know, obviously I have some guaranteed listenership and like return listeners, but I think it was cool because it was like, oh, like there's video elements to my show.
There's audio. So I think a lot of organizations really like gravitated towards wanting to sponsor a show that combine those two things just for people out there [00:40:00] that might be interested.
Diana Bunge: Yeah, that's great. I think if we're okay on time, um, just wanted to, uh, Ask what has been the most, um, inspiring and favorite show that you've recorded so far, whether it's like, because it really made you laugh or cry or just something that really sticks into your mind of like, this is why I do this.
Like this is one of the best parts of, of podcasting for me.
Kiana Michaan: While you're thinking about that, I just want to say I loved what you were sharing about, um, the really technical episodes, doing the best, I'll maybe add to that, or like, what is something you've learned, because you're all experts in what you do, and the climate field is so vast, and your shows cover a large breadth of topics, and the industry is constantly and rapidly changing and evolving, and you also cover issues such as, you know, policy that is, and changes in [00:41:00] technology.
So perhaps it's a favorite episode or just something you've you've learned because I can speak for myself and say I think I've learned so much from every single one of my guests which is I think maybe the greatest gift of doing the show in addition to being able to bring that to other people.
Aiko Schaefer: It is hard to pick one episode.
It, it's every single one. I'm just absolutely blown away with the people out there. And that's where the inspiration comes from. Even if they're talking about heavy topics, they are still trying to solve them. And that just makes me feel just better. Um, and so many shows, I will say there's one show where I felt like I just, uh, Wasn't going to talk at all.
I felt like I had nothing to add, um, which actually we haven't aired yet is an interview. I recently did with a Navajo nation who talked about just the impact of, um, uranium ore mining on lands that was such a [00:42:00] awful situation, you know, historically, currently, me. And that the situation is going to get worse again because we're in our focus on carbon fundamentalism that we are reopening the door to nuclear energy and just hearing the story of how their land has been damaged, how their health and families have been damaged.
Um, and, and. There's the historic damage that hasn't been fixed. And now, you know, we're sort of going back down that path in very aggressive ways. And I think during that show is the one of the shows where I just felt like I couldn't talk both because the speaker was extraordinary. Uh, but it was just so deeply troubling and that the solution was not.
Evident, like the rest of the shows we had sort of curated around this, like, okay, we had this problem and here's this person who's got a solution and they're fixing it. [00:43:00] I think when we actually do go into the, there is no, there's not necessarily a happy ending. Uh, that one was one that I, yeah, I just sort of have been struggling with our, our production team saying, Because I just stopped asking questions.
Um, because I didn't want to interrupt. And I was like, I don't know where to go here. Cause it's just all just horrifying. And so I think it was memorable. Um, and my favorite, which you would think that was one where it was like, Oh, I taped it perfectly. And you like started with a problem and you wrapped it at the end and all was a beautiful bow at the end.
It was probably my favorite because it was just so much like, well, what? What do I, what do we do with that? Like, how do we, in a 20 minute show kind of drop that bomb and then just like, okay. So I think it's those moments that I scratch my head and think, okay, this is like the power and the responsibility of what we.
are doing that kind of hit me a little [00:44:00] harder than most of the other shows that I've done.
Arielle King: Um, so what I love about The Joy Report, probably more than anything, is the opportunity to showcase radical imagination in real time. And like, we have an episode Focusing on radical imagination that we did with Grist, um, during season one. That was wonderful. Um, I loved like taking a full like left turn and just like doing a full episode on book bans and like how that relates to environmental justice as like a book nerd myself.
Um, I have also, I think in season one we did an episode on ecosystem restoration and we highlighted a, um, an organization called diving with a purpose and they train, um, Like black people to scuba dive and then do like coral restoration work and like archaeological like research underwater to like [00:45:00] identify remains of slave ships.
And so it's just like really, really powerful. And I love, um, the opportunity to do that type of stuff. And one episode that I am like really excited about, um, for season two, we just released one on like funding and radically re imagining funding for the climate movement and like talking about disparities, talking about what it would look like to have new models that like more adequately, um, fund and contribute to solutions and recognizing that like funding is the greatest barrier for us being able to achieve a lot of the things that we want to do.
Um, so that was a long answer with a lot of answers, but. Um,
Kristy Drutman: I would say like my two favorites that just popped in my head now, but I, I also feel the same. I've loved every guest and I've loved every subject I've ever covered over the years is, um, but it's feeling more relevant recently is my episode that is about the connections [00:46:00] between, um, like, Prisons and climate and it's with the organization, uh, fight toxic prisons.
And we talk about the connections between, um, folks who are incarcerated living on the front lines of heat and, uh, rising waters and things like that. And the, just like the poor conditions they have to live within, because I had yet to see many podcasts or shows talk about specifically how that population is being impacted and disenfranchised when it comes to the climate crisis.
And so I really liked that episode because I didn't know much about what that looks like. I think there's a lot of Maybe populations or work that I've done in the past, um, where I understood those things, but that was like an area of expertise where it was like, I don't even know how you possibly approach that from, you know, addressing it through like an abolitionist lens.
So that was interesting. And then the other series that I really enjoyed was my deep sea mining series. So I did a three part series exploring the concept of deep [00:47:00] sea mining, which for people who don't know is the practice of going deep, deep into the depths of the ocean to literally destroy. The last bits of, um, you know, oceanic, uh, ecosystems we have in search of rare minerals that are going to go into, um, different technologies, and there's a lot of countries around the world illegally starting to explore that.
Um, and I worked with an organization to do a three part series where I interviewed, um, someone who actually understood the financing. So actually the global financing structures and where the interventions could happen in that space. I interviewed an international scientist, um, like marine scientists who talked about the science, um, and harm behind deep sea mining.
And then I interviewed. an incredible indigenous activist, um, who actually is living in one of the, you know, island territories is being threatened by deep sea mining and talking about why she feels passionate, um, uh, of, of [00:48:00] living in living on the front lines of, you know, deep sea mining. And so I really love that series because it takes one issue, but brings Three different vantage points together to all pretty much send the same message that this, this ish need to be banned.
So yeah, I really like those two, um, concepts.
Diana Bunge: Yeah, I think for me, um, this, the person that I interviewed wasn't Latin or female, but, um, I had the privilege of interviewing Kim Stanley Robinson for my podcast. And honestly, I had, it was really funny. Like I was connected to him through an old professor, my undergrad, and we had to schedule it out like months in advance because he was so busy.
And I remember it was like a Saturday. And he's been in the climate space for like decades. And I was just so astounded by just the wisdom he had. I think the [00:49:00] conversation, like the way that he sort of framed his, the way that he got into writing about climate was more through the lens of science fiction that then kind of morphed into writing about climate.
Um, kind of climate science fiction, it became a genre as he was, um, writing and so he really talked about how climate change for our generation is like, he compared it to the civil rights movement for his generation. And he, he sort of kind of framed it to me in this way that was like, if you feel like you don't have a purpose, this is your purpose.
And so for me, it just, it was one of those conversations where I just like. Really took a step back and was like, this is the why of why we're doing all of this. And it was just such an, an inspirational conversation and has, has really stuck with me.
Kiana Michaan: Wow. I mean, I've had the pleasure of already listening to some of the [00:50:00] episodes you mentioned, but go listen to all these episodes. Um, they're incredible and looking forward to the one that hasn't come out yet. All right. I think we'll do maybe kind of one more question and then open it up to all of you.
Any questions? Um, yeah, I think in, in closing, how are you hoping to see the impact of your show on moving your goals of supporting climate justice forward? And what are you looking forward to in all that's to come with your show? I know it sounds like there's things that have been recorded and not released yet.
Um, and, and, um, You, you are all visionaries, so kind of what are your visions for how the show will, these shows will continue to move forward and have a positive impact because storytelling is, is so important, I think what's continues to come through and everything you've shared is, [00:51:00] it's more than just the information you're sharing in the shows, it's whether if it's narrative, kind of that story you're crafting through the script to create an emotional connection with your listeners and for the interview shows, the connections that you are having with the guests are really powerful, um, and contribute just as much as the facts and information themselves.
So how, how is this carrying forward in your vision for the future?
Aiko Schaefer: Well, I'm hoping in the future we all get to do another show again. Uh, I think that would be a lot of fun. And, um, I think that. For me, you know, because of the extraordinary community organizing and activism that's been happening out there around environmental justice, we are seeing, um, policymakers and elected heads.
Actually welcoming more the input of community and, and, and, um, at least signaling and sometimes staturally [00:52:00] allowing communities to have a greater voice. And that's been really important on this point of self determination. So for me, I think looking forward is to the extent that. For us, we can give people the information to be strong advocates, um, to be able to go into those meetings and feel like they have the technical expertise and, you know, support that they need to be able to engage in those conversations.
So I think if we can, you know, the future is a little unknown. I'll just leave it there as a charitable nonprofit. Um, and, and so, you know, either, you know, whatever the future brings, um, come this November, our work. Uh, you know, still continues. We are looking not only broadly at our, you know, survival as humans and the planet and, um, all living creatures, but also the political civil rights movement that we're in on all those fronts.
Incarcerated individuals, indigenous folks, BIPOC folks, broadly, to be able to have the ability [00:53:00] to shape their future and to have, you know, clean water, healthy food, clean air, you know, opportunity, all those things that we know are fundamental and important in our work is far from over. We are at a Inflection point in the U. S. In terms of how much we continue to advance those and how much we are back on our heels in a defensive posture. And so I think what I look for in the future is the ability for our platforms to continue to to advance the discourse to be able to raise the challenges, the sort of successes, but also to be able to deepen understanding, um, Of what we need to do and really what's at risk.
And so I'm hoping that we all keep working together to just, um, cover all the bases. There's so many issues. There's so many amazing people because it takes a while to produce. We do have to, to, you know, do a lot of work. And so I'm excited to be connected through this panel with everyone so we can begin figuring out like, okay, you got that covered.
I've got that [00:54:00] covered. And, um, I'm trying to convince everyone to do a post election. Podcast. And that'd be great to hear us talking about what we think about the outcome of the election and what the future looks like and things like that would be great. Um, so it's just a, I'm hoping the future brings us together more.
Kristy Drutman: Beautiful.
Arielle King: Thank you. Um, I think. I would, I'm looking forward to this podcast and all the podcasts represented here to continue empowering those who feel voiceless, those who feel hopeless, those who just haven't been able to be as involved in this movement as they want to be. You know, in the first season, the joy report reached over 60 countries.
And I like recognize the like immense value and privilege of that. I recognize that in the United States, like we still can protest, right? Like, and, and like, it's one of the few [00:55:00] places in the world where we're actually able to like go out and like not risk our lives. Like, you know, and, and of course there are people who are risking their lives, um, in this fight, but I think like, The ability to protest like is actually technically protected, you know, it's a protected right in this country.
Um, which I think is an opportunity and it provides an option and it provides empowerment. And so I hope that, um, more people learn from the podcasts. Um, I hope that they talk about these issues more. I hope that, um, Uh, these podcasts will give people the language necessary to make convert, like to integrate climate into more conversations.
I find that, um, there's still a really big disconnect about who feels like they can talk about climate. Um, and I think now more than ever, we need everyone to be talking about climate. Um, and so I hope that like. These podcasts will continue to give people the language, even [00:56:00] if they haven't like studied the environment for years and years and years, to feel like they can be a part of solutions and being part of these conversations.
Kristy Drutman: Yeah, I would say that, um, just echoing what everyone already said, I would say, like, podcasts serve as a tool for people that want to just, like, more passively consume content. I think, like, there's a huge opportunity because a lot of the social media content we're consuming is so fast paced and, you know, Five seconds and your brain's like fried.
And so it's like, I think podcasting is this exciting new opportunity for people to get back into the vibe of longer form content to maybe go deeper on a subject. Um, and I've always really appreciated and loved. Podcasting for that reason, um, just because I think it's like the one space where it's like, okay, like I do have an hour I'm going on a walk.
I'm on a train or whatever. I can actually like sit down and listen to this Um, I know I have to like actively like be on my [00:57:00] phone having to like read through everything and be over stimulated And so I think, you know, I think podcasting has the opportunity for people to slow down. And I think that's inherently like more sustainable and environmental in nature.
So I would say podcasting is a more sustainable media consumption tool, in my opinion, compared to other forms, even though I do it all. But I would say podcasting actually, like you got to sit down, you got to listen. You can't, I mean, yeah, but then you can also do other things. You can live your life, but like, it's there.
Whereas I think a lot of the things we're consuming outside in the world, it's like, it's right in your face. You have to be there right there. So I think it's like a metaphor for how we should all be living and consuming. So I'd say the future of podcasting is maybe the future of environmentalism and how we're all engaging with each other.
Mic drop. Yeah.
Diana Bunge: Love that. So fun. The, the last thing I'll say before we, we wrap. I think for me, [00:58:00] the future. My podcast is surrounded around language access. Um, so anecdotally, when I went to COP 26 in Glasgow, I, there's one of the days is like youth day and, and so one of the things that I noticed was how Much of a language barrier there is throughout the whole thing, which is so ironic because it's the UN, the UNFCCC, um, and how so many of the events materials weren't in Spanish, French, other languages, um, represented in the UN.
And so. One of my main things is having more episodes in Spanish and having a bilingual podcast to make this information accessible to so many people who speak Spanish around the world who are deeply involved in the climate space. So much of what's happening in the U. S. is happening in Central South [00:59:00] America.
A lot of the transition affects, um, you know, critical minerals, things happening in these countries. And so broadening You know, the conversation around environmental and climate justice into these spaces. So, um, yeah, I'll just wrap with that.
Kiana Michaan: Appreciate you all so much. I could keep chatting all day. But, um, before we open it up to questions, yeah, go ahead.
I was gonna say, before we open it up to questions, could you just let people know again, where they can find your shows or follow your work more broadly, so they can hear more of your beautiful voices?
Diana Bunge: Yeah. So you can find, uh, Palma podcast, it's Palma underscore podcast on Instagram. Um, I'm on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and yeah.
It's, it's all there.
Kristy Drutman: You can check out the Brown Girl Green podcast. It's just called Brown Girl Green, wherever you listen to your shows. Um, and the episodes are also on browngirlgreen. com and the Brown Girl Green [01:00:00] podcast and youtube. com slash brown girl green.
Arielle King: Um, so you can find the Joy Report on Apple or Spotify, um, and also on Intersectional Environmentalist's website.
Um, so you can also just follow them at Intersectional Environmentalist, um, and you can follow me at Arielle B. King.
Aiko Schaefer: Our podcast, uh, same locations. It's called Just Solutions Podcast, and you can learn about all of our work at justsolutionscollective. org.
Kiana Michaan: I hope you all have your phones out and are already following all of them.
Uh, feel free to come find us if you need to repeat any of that, but let's give it up for our amazing panelists. Thank you so much, everyone. And with that, I'll open it up if there's any questions.
Audience Member 1: Thank you. Um, my question is about the bilingual aspect and, and having episodes in different languages. Um, do you find you need to, you need to create another kind of marketing strategy to get those episodes in front of the right people?
Or how would [01:01:00] you kind of try to push those episodes to the right demographic so that they can find it?
Diana Bunge: Yeah, totally. So one of the episodes I did fully in Spanish was I interviewed the head of sustainability at Flor de Caña, which is a rum company, um, based in Nicaragua, which is where my family is from.
And I think a hundred percent, I think there's And, and like, there's a huge, um, demographic of Hispanic folks here in the U. S., but I do find that some of the conversations that are happening in Central and South America are a little bit different and have different, um, sort of audiences in the sense of the issues related to EJ and climate justice are more nuanced.
So I think as I. continue to think about what conversations I want to bring to the table. I want to do my own homework so that I understand the nuances. Cause one of my biggest pet peeves is a lot of the, the discussions [01:02:00] about, um, you know, these issues, at least in the States is it kind of feels very broad.
And so I want to make sure that I'm very specific. about the issues that are happening in these countries. Um, so I think going forward, that's something that I definitely want to do of understanding who are the players in different countries and like stakeholders because, um, like thinking about, for example, like the recent election in Mexico, I, I found the conversation extremely interesting about.
Not only the first female president in Mexico, but somebody who has deep involvement within the climate space and how even within my own Mexican friends that there were different opinions. And so wanting to bring that out and have more of a nuanced conversation, I think, is kind of like where I want to be.
Audience Member (Nina): Hi, thank you guys so much for that. Um, I, my name's Nina. I'm a recent grad, [01:03:00] uh, uh, with a master's now in climate change sciences. And while you guys were all speaking, there were themes about what a typical climate scientist looks like. Um, and also just generally starting out in the space and like themes about perfectionism.
So I guess I'm wondering if you could. And this is to everyone, uh, go back to your younger self when you like, were starting specifically in climate, generally, and I suppose in podcasting, what would you say to that younger, more novice version of yourself?
Aiko Schaefer: I need time to think back that far.
Kristy Drutman: I would have said like, I would have said, like, don't be a perfectionist for sure.
Like, I think, like I said, I wasted a lot of time just being in my own head and thinking something wasn't good enough to where it took me, like, months to put something out. Um, and yeah, like, there was really good content there and it stopped me, it slowed me down, and I could have had so many more episodes I [01:04:00] put up, could have done so many other things if I just got out of my head and just did it.
Um, and I'm glad because You know, eventually I did do that. And then, you know, now like I am doing what I do now. And so it's like, I feel like I always tell myself, like, you are living proof of like the destiny you're building for yourself. And so it's like one of those things where it's like, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to other people or like where they're at in their journey or like, Oh, I'm late to the game or, Oh, like these things already exist.
It's like, I think just get started and I think be persistent. And I think those two things and not getting caught up in your head with perfectionism is really key.
Arielle King: Um, I would probably tell my younger self to take up more space. I think, um, as a little black girl in the climate movement, I like, I was, told to not take up space, right?
Like, and I felt like I couldn't. And, [01:05:00] um, I think that limited my like comfort, especially very early on in like voicing my opinion and understanding that like, because of who I am, my unique set of experiences and the perspective that I can add just from being who I am is so valuable. It's actually so needed in so many rooms.
And so, um, I would just tell myself to take up more space and like, to like, confront people when they're saying ridiculous things. Um, like actually I'll never forget. I'm like my freshman year of college. I'm in like an environmental ethics class. And like the professor has us read this essay of like comparing animal cruelty, um, in the food system to chattel slavery in the United States and being like, yeah, it's the same impact.
It's the same, like all these things. And like, as the only black person in the room, I like, Was felt so disempowered, right? And I was like, and, and that was like so harmful. And I feel like in that moment, um, it was easy to just kind [01:06:00] of like cave into myself. Cause I was scared. Right. And I think, um, in retrospect, I would have wanted to like call him out.
In person, like, I don't know. I, I, I would have wanted to use my voice, um, and talk about how wrong that perspective is, um, more publicly. So,
Aiko Schaefer: um, I think the only thing I'd add is to, um, when you're in this space, the, the more that you're grounded in community, the better, because I think this topic can become so cerebral and so esoteric in the sense that, you know, I think in this day and age, which is a whole other show, I think we are currently moving towards an obsession with technology and sort of Silicon Valley sort of saving us all from the planet, right?
Uh, the decline of the planet. And so I think that if you have that Scientific technical training, which is so amazing, right? And such a privilege to be able to obtain is to find out how you can be close with community, to be in service [01:07:00] to community. Because I think that sort of tethering yourself in that way will keep you in a place where you will have authentic impact because that is really where it's going to come from.
That's really where it has to come from is that the communities in particular that are disproportionately impacted are leading and are thinking about The work, and they often need people who have that privilege of having gone to get a higher education to support them and help them to make their ideas become reality, not to create the idea for them, but to have that scientific training to say, the thing that you want to accomplish actually will have the impact that you think it will.
It's not to, uh, it's to be in that service and in that partnership that I think ultimately you do well, if you are driven by. Ego or personal gain or getting published or being famous like we do not need any of that We've got plenty of that. So I think that's sort of where we want to be right? So it's great. [01:08:00] Congratulations
Audience Member 3: Um, I think with podcasting, the, uh, it can feel like you're kind of screaming into the void sometimes, like with listeners, not wanting longer contents, you know, cause due to like shorter attention spans, um, and you've had to like, kind of, uh, craft your messaging so that it impacts people.
Um, and it's felt like what has been. Some of, like, the greatest examples of, like, how your podcast, you saw the direct impact, like, of an episode, like, did that turn into, like, some really cool project that you worked on, or some really great collaborations? Did it change someone's mind? Did it, like, change a policymaker's mind?
Like, what was the, like, greatest impact you saw from your work?
Kristy Drutman: I really like that question. I would say, um, the episode that I, um, was talking about that was, like, featured in different classrooms was the episode, um, it came out in 2020, and it was, um, after Christian Cooper, the, uh, black birder, [01:09:00] um, you know, was called on the police, um, called on by the police, um, for bird watching in Central Park.
And, you know, it was huge controversy, obviously, like, got crazy coverage and I actually, like, did the episode, um, connecting that with other, like, environmental justice leaders, um, who, uh, were doing work in Detroit. Another in other spaces talking about like what what is like the future of like the environmental justice movement in this moment?
As we're seeing, you know racial injustice happening all over the world It's been happening, but like people are having this reckoning, you know, or this like wake up moment. I remember like Yeah, again, I didn't expect so many like people to like listen to it, but then you know a lot of teachers Thought of it as like a really great like 101 on like teaching, you know, their students about environmental justice specifically from Leaders in the space while also having it in the context of something that was happening with current events um, and I think [01:10:00] that showed me that like As much as like it's great to like produce a show that could be evergreen Honestly, I think the most impactful podcast episodes, at least in my experience, the ones that have gotten the most engagement and feedback has been very current event driven, which has actually encouraged me to like, want to get back into making a weekly series.
Again, not super polished, but like just putting out like, this is what happened this week. And like, let's talk about it. Um, but a lot of people have asked me for that over the years. And I think that, um, that episode when that happened, there's, it created a lot of conversations to where they even made like, um, These teachers made like a module out of it and like ask questions and got student feedback and like, that was really cool because it was like, wow, like my, my episode is being used as part of like a pedagogy for environmental justice in classrooms.
Like that felt really, really impactful for sure.
Arielle King: Um, similarly, I've, uh, received feedback from a lot of professors who have like integrated the podcast into their work. I would say primarily, [01:11:00] um, episodes related to renewable energy. Um, cause we like talk about it in a very accessible way and like talk about solutions in a very clear way.
And also all of the episodes are under 30 minutes. So it does like appeal to the limited attention spans of most students. So.
Aiko Schaefer: Um, I don't know yet. Our podcast is, uh, we have one season, um, sort of new to this. Um, uh, I think that there are a couple of things to think about. One is, I think that the, that often the impact is with the guests.
I think it is true that a lot of guests that we have on the show, struggle with imposter syndrome, right? It's like, Oh, why am I on your show? Like, am I really like that important? Um, and so I think just that work that we do to validate their leadership and often just the conversation of bringing them forward and helping them see how important they are, um, how much they have to offer the work in the movement.
I think the second thing I'll say is, um, you know, podcasting is such a new tool. Uh, tactic in, in the body [01:12:00] of movement of social movements, right? For me, you know, community organizing, you know, direct action, uh, you know, social activity, uh, in terms of mobilizing and engaging community to me is fundamental, right?
The podcast, and especially a 20 minute podcast, isn't I don't think we'll create social change, right? It's going to take those deeper elements that historically have created the political pressure, uh, to, to actually, you know, create the change that we need to see on the scale that we need to. But can the podcast play a role?
Uh, in other ways to, to support that, right. To be able to bring people's thinking to a particular place, to deepen their understanding, to bring other voices into the space. So I do think to me, there's this blend of, you know, I, like I said before, I have my own opinion and I get to curate our show with our team, which is.
Just amazing. But it is sort of a question at this point of [01:13:00] like, what is the role of of podcasts in particular? How do we, uh, I'm very mindful, uh, become complicit in some of the sort of Maybe the, uh, it's hard to discern sometimes like the information and like, what are we doing here and what is the solution and who is the right person to have as a speaker.
So I think for us, it's the danger of not being complicit in sort of the greenwashing or putting up certain, uh, messages or speakers. And so I think that's the hard part is that as BIPOC identified women, we, we have this. Privilege. Um, and I'm and I think there's a little bit of like deeper thinking that I have been going through about.
Well, what is what is our responsibility? And how do you begin to live that out? And unlike large institutional, um, [01:14:00] communication efforts, right? Who have sponsors and advertisers and producers who are trying to make sure they get listeners. We do have that freedom that I try not to think too much about who our listeners are because I do think it starts to make you be like, Oh, we want more listeners.
And that's always the danger. And thinking like, what do our listeners need, you know, want to hear? Maybe we'll create shows that get more listeners. So I think there is something about that. Freedom, but I think there's also this question of like, what is our role in social movements? Like what is our place and what are we doing in that way that I think is still a little unclear for me, but it's fun to do in the meantime.
Kiana Michaan: I will just add briefly. I think There's many impacts, but one that's felt meaningful to me is messages I've gotten from listeners saying things like, Hey, I'm also a woman of color who works in the energy space and listening to this made me feel [01:15:00] less alone. Um, I think like those kinds of messages I've gotten have felt the most meaningful to me.
Um, just knowing that you might really just like touch one person out there and who knows what that inspires them to go out and do. And hopefully it's more than just one person, but yeah, I think it's, uh, beautiful to see kind of the ripple of impact and, um, also it's, it's brought all of us together here in person, not just, you know, behind the mics in a part.
So grateful for that. I think maybe we could take one more quick question and then we'll close out.
Audience Member 4: Um, Um, I guess basically my question is, and I, I think you started to speak to it, but, um, Yeah. How do y'all contend with the fact that this is both a movement, but really also a massive industry, um, climate, um, and even like climate week itself, um, is backed by, you know, [01:16:00] huge, huge banks and funders.
Majority of the events are about fundraising. Um, and I, you know, I think about this question because of, you know, You spoke about one podcast. I missed their name, but they said that this was like the biggest movement since civil rights, but environmental justice is civil rights. It's just a continuation of civil rights.
But I think at this point, it affects everybody on this earth. So folks have to participate and be concerned. Um, so yeah, I just think a lot about how this movement, um, is, is a movement, but also one that is like bolstered by billions and billions of dollars. And that for us to like do events and to do our work, we have to have sponsors.
So you know, I guess what boundaries do you create within that work for yourselves as individuals for self preservation, but also preservation of a movement?
Arielle King: [01:17:00] Really important one. I think one, I think all of us have shared how podcasting is a tool, right? And, and it's one of many to be able to achieve an, uh, options for accessible education.
Um, I think for, for the joy report and for IE in general, like we are really mindful about who we seek out for sponsorships. Um, and we prioritize and only work with mission aligned companies, which Limits how much funding we can get, right? But, but it also, um, it prioritizes and demonstrates to our audiences and to ourselves that we have like clear non negotiables about like, who we want to be in community with.
Um, and yeah, so I guess that's one way that we go about it. And then we also, um, recognize the value of collaboration. And so like, as much as we can, we want to like add in the perspectives and voices of other like, Organizations and uplift other organizations, [01:18:00] um, who, so we can use our platform to amplify the work of others who might not have that level of access and platform.
So like the lifting up as we climb tactic is one that we use often.
Kristy Drutman: I love that. I would, I would. Echo that I think collaboration has been key and like, um, I've also like explored like just being a host on other podcasts So like I've kind of moved in and out of a space like I Podcasting was a big part of like my work as a content creator But ultimately like it really wasn't paying my bills to be honest with you like compared to sponsorship I get for like other forms of media like Video just, for me, paid me a lot more than doing podcasting, so I just, like, naturally moved away from it.
I still have my podcast, um, which is amazing, and honestly, this conversation inspired me to, like, you know, really get back into a weekly series, because I kind of just, like, release them in chunks. Um, the podcast really was, like, an act of love and art. It was not my main income source. I think [01:19:00] if it was, I'd be really stressed out.
Because podcasting, like at least when I was starting out, like didn't really have a good return on investment. Cause it was really based on listenership and a lot of the. Uh, collectives I was a part of had, like, really stringent requirements to have consistent leader, uh, listenership. And if you even went, like, a hundred listeners below that, you were TF out.
Like, they're like, sorry, you're not in the collective anymore. And now you don't get affiliate money. For your episodes and so it's a it's a ruthless industry if I'm being honest with you, um, especially the saturation of it Um, I know that this is a little ugly, but I just gotta be honest about it So I personally think podcasting is is an act of love More than it is monetary Um, compared to other things that I do as a content creator, but I would say how I've done it because I do video and I do blog.
I package the podcast into a bunch of other content I do. Um, and that creates something [01:20:00] interesting for clients and companies that I work with where it's like, okay, the podcast is also a part of a real interview and expert interview and leader. And like, that gets to be a part of it as part of the thought leadership you're getting to showcase as an organization.
And for me, Every person or content creator has their through line. I don't work with fossil fuel companies, but I have worked with like bigger corporations like Meta and some other places that maybe some other people would be like, I would never work with them because of like data security or whatever.
So if you're like a content creator. You have to decide what that line is. And I personally don't judge black or Brown creators for taking money from certain corporations. Cause yeah, maybe that makes them a seller, but also like, that's how you're, they get the freedom to say whatever the hell they want and they're not tied to an institution.
And I think there's a lot of lack of nuance that the world doesn't see that is on the shoulders of content creators, especially black and Brown ones that are suppressed by the algorithm that sometimes we don't have a choice. It's just like, We have to sometimes take those brand deals [01:21:00] because ultimately that gives us the autonomy to say whatever we want.
Now, if someone takes a brand deal and you can tell that they are limiting what they're saying in their perspective, then I would say, raise your eyebrows. But if they say straight up, Hey, I took this money because that allows me the freedom to like, say whatever political opinion I want, whatever, and this allows me to pay my bills.
Personally, for me, I don't judge people for that. I know some other people are more purist around that, but I think we have to be honest that black and brown people's content is getting suppressed, and because of that, that impacts the money that we make, and so there needs to be a balance between those things.
But also, you as a creator have to decide what your through line is on what makes you like a sellout or not.
Aiko Schaefer: I think it's a great question. I think it's fundamental. Um, is that, um, you know, as, as a nonprofit, right? Part of the structure is that you do create a theory of change, right? And so that theory of change and your values and principles and that process that you go [01:22:00] through helps to set the compass.
And then I think the podcast for us in our, in our particular approaches, it's just a educational tactic. Um, and so it's tied to sort of, you know, what are we doing? And then organizationally, our role is, um, positionally in support of community, right? So I know that when I express my opinion, um, which I try not to, it's recognizing that now I'm saying my opinion.
Um, but I think what you're asking more fundamentally is about the climate movement and And, and we can be reflective of it, uh, for sure. Or we could go against it. And I think that going against it is very important because I do think that we are, I feel like, and this is a whole other show that in the, in the, in the last six months or more, maybe.
A couple of years now, we are moving towards a very like supercharged, neoliberal let's, you know, like I said before, let's [01:23:00] invest in clean energy technologies, many that are questionable and we've really kind of started to seed. I mean, equity is declining. I think the George Floyd murder moment is, is going away, which we all knew it's gone.
We all knew it lasted longer than I thought. And, and so the equity is like. Not necessary. If your focus is about a bright and shiny, you know, solution that's going to come in and save the day. Doesn't matter about what we think anymore, except a little during election season. Right. But by and large, that's kind of where we are.
And I think everyone is lining up on that. It's less about, I think, where we're, where we were even just a handful of years ago. It's quite remarkable. You're seeing a retraction on DEI. You're seeing, I mean, Funders are retracting money for equity and justice work. So I do think that, uh, I have never been to climate week.
This is the first time I came down on Tuesday and I agree with you. We were talking more closed door meetings, more, [01:24:00] you know, focus on fundraising, a lot more corporate presence, a lot more conversation about industry, uh, industry and technological advances and how we can all get behind that. And as taxpayers, folks from the U S like.
You know billions and billions of dollars in private investments with no real accountability return, right? So there's definitely something to that and I think that the question is, you know What are all the vehicles that we can kind of reclaim the conversation because I actually think we're losing it and in in The winter again is C3, not saying too much in 2025, it's, it's going to stay the course or it's going to be worse.
And I'm, and I think there's a big kind of X factor out there for sure. No, literally, literally an X factor out there, right?
Kiana Michaan: Well on that note, thank you all so much for being here. Let's give it up one more time. [01:25:00]
Thank you for listening. Climate with Kiana is co produced. By Kiana Michaan and Lucy Little. This episode was edited by Lucy Little Theme, music by Naima Mackrel.
This podcast is recorded and produced in New York City on unceded Munsee Lenape land. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend, leave a comment and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. For more information about the guests and topics discussed, please visit climate with kiana.com. Until the next time, stay joyous.