In this episode, we hear from Ramón Cruz, professor at Princeton University, environmental advocate, and former president of Sierra Club. We discuss his journey into environmental policy work, hear an excerpt from an article he wrote about confronting the complex past of the environmental movement and discuss climate change & Puerto Rico.
In this episode, we hear from Ramón Cruz, professor at Princeton University, environmental advocate, and former president of Sierra Club. We discuss his journey into environmental policy work, hear an excerpt from an article he wrote about confronting the complex past of the environmental movement and discuss climate change & Puerto Rico.
Credits
Hosted and produced by Kiana Michaan
Edited and co-produced by Lucy Little
For resources, transcripts, and more information about the guest: https://www.climatewithkiana.com/podcast/environmental-policy-amp-equity-with-ramon-cruz
Kiana Michaan: [00:00:00] Welcome to Climate with Kiana, a podcast about climate solutions shared through a framework of joy and justice. I'm your host, Kiana, a solar and clean energy advocate passionate about just climate action. In this show, let's explore solutions to the climate crisis through inspiring conversations with climate experts who are leading important and innovative work to shape a more just and sustainable world.
Let's cultivate hope and joy by exploring these climate solutions and visioning new possibilities together.
In today's episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Ramón Cruz, former president of Sierra Club and current professor at Princeton University.
Ramón Cruz: The challenge of climate change cannot be divorced [00:01:00] from who do we have in power and who gets to vote or what a collective can go forward and present themselves to elections, you know.
And so all of those, you know, the intersectionality of all those issues is very relevant because we're not only talking about just the effects of sea level rise. and extreme weather, but it's the capacity to come back and the capacity to transition to a clean economy, but also doing it in a way that we don't repeat the problems of the past, you know, with that history of extractivism and colonialism and capitalism.
Kiana Michaan: We discuss his journey into environmental policy work, confronting the climate crisis. Complex past of the environmental movement and discuss climate change on his home island of Puerto Rico a quick note about the episode This was reported before the november 2024 US elections And so keep that in mind in terms of our [00:02:00] political discussion It's more important than ever that we vote for climate candidates, especially as we're facing such significant political hurdles to ensuring a livable and just environmental future for all.
So with all that said, please enjoy my conversation with Ramón.
This podcast is brought to you in part by support from the Clean Energy Leadership Institute. Well, I'm really excited to get into today's conversation about environmental policy and about Puerto Rico. And I have a wonderful guest with me today. Ramón, thank you so much for being here.
Ramón Cruz: Well, thank you, Kiana. Thanks for the opportunity to to meet you and to meet your audience. I'm Ramón Cruz. I'm originally from Borinquen, which is the Taino name for the island of Puerto Rico. I use he, him [00:03:00] pronouns and I'm an environmentalist. I have Spend my career in environmental advocacy and environmental policy.
Kiana Michaan: Amazing. And you've done so much in, in that space and the intersection of environmental justice. You were formerly the president at Sierra club and are currently. I'm a professor and lecturer at Princeton, and I also saw and wanted to congratulate you on being named to New York's Power Players in Climate Change and Sustainability.
Congrats. Thank
Ramón Cruz: you very much.
Kiana Michaan: Can you tell me a little bit about what inspired you to get into environmental work?
Ramón Cruz: Well, I got to the environmental Advocacy world, really through working social justice, especially during my college years, I would say I was I'm an activist you know, for social justice, social transformation.
[00:04:00] And even though I had an important base. I guess through my mom my mom was at some point it was a nun but more I guess it was very committed to service and so. I I guess I inherited that from her. She also had an ecology club, eh, back in, in the high school where she taught that I went to as well.
And, you know, I was a Boy Scout. So there was a lot of like relationship to nature. However. When people ask me, you know, when, you know, when did I decide to be an environmentalist? I usually say, I mean, that, that question came up a lot, you know, especially when I was president of the Sierra Club.
And I dated back to to this moment in my college years. Where I remember it was a Latino film festival, but I met these former guerrilla from Uruguay. And we were talking, I was I studied [00:05:00] international relations and history, and I was a big fan of like the 20th century social movements in Latin America.
And she was telling me how frustrated she was with, you know, with her generation. They took up arms, they wanted to change the world. And then that whole movement. in her view was co opted by these, you know, by political egos and corruption and in many places. And of course we see that in all systems, but she said, you know, I guess she blamed a lot of the leaders in those movements.
And I remember her telling me that if she would be, you know, coming of age as I was in that moment, she would choose the environment as her cause. Because it is really a leaderless movement or a protagonist less movement, you know, and and if you think about it, you know, in the 50 years or so [00:06:00] of the modern environmental movement.
You know dating basically Earth Day from now There's barely any icons. Of course, there are many temporary leaders, you know I would say probably Greta Thunberg is the closest thing to an icon in 50 years of the environmental movement and that is very positive, you know when movements do not have protagonists and therefore And, you know, the cause is what drives people into it, and that's very positive, I think.
Kiana Michaan: Yeah, it's, I think there have been, I mean, Greta, also I think of Rachel Carson, and like different moments, but you're right, the movement hasn't had one clear leader, and also I think the people who get elevated. It's interesting who gets elevated, but there is a strength. And also it's a movement that requires leadership from everyone and that it's so collaborative.
But yeah, [00:07:00] really interesting to hear that. Your interest was sparked in that moment, I'm thinking about kind of the environmental justice movement and how that has often been siloed from what is considered perhaps the more mainstream environmental movement and climate movement. So basically, my question for you is.
What was your, when you started in this work and in the policy space, what was your experience of having the social and environmental justice component of the work be centered and did you face barriers in
Ramón Cruz: Well, you know, I guess, I mean, I, even though now I'm, you know, much you know, 25 years into my career I guess, I mean, I have to say, you know, when I was a folk studying and focusing already on environmental issues You know, it's there, there was already you [00:08:00] know, kind of like a field forming and and so, you know, I could focus on environment environmental policy and advocacy, but, you know, it wasn't always like that, you know, and we have to also you know, point out that movement.
evolve and movements change. And so one can, you know, there's this perception like, well, there's this tension between a, you know, environment, mainstream and environmental justice. And there will always be in a way, the same way that there is between the federal government and state is an ongoing relationship.
And you want to, minimize those tensions so that the movement can be, you know, can be allies and all, you know, all of that. So I was able to develop a career in the mainstream environmental organizations. You know, I worked first for environmental defense fund. I was a consultant [00:09:00] for natural resources defense council.
I became president of the Sierra club, but I must accept that, you know, probably 10, 20. 30 years before that, I wouldn't have been able to to be in those places because of, you know, either discrimination and prejudice and lack of opportunity. And so, You know, I really was able to enter there because yeah, I was standing in the shoulders of giants that were able, that fought to open those doors for me, you know, I was able to study in an Ivy league school because I was able to, you know, others came before that couldn't, but open those doors, you know, Many of them people of colors and white allies, you know, and there has always been you know that allyship Necessary to create those changes.
And so I am a the result of that. So So yeah, I mean it's a I mean, I guess I took your question more in my own personal [00:10:00] experience but that to say that You know, the mainstream groups have also been changed. And then there's more people like me that may be more sensible to the claims from the past that some people in those mainstream groups before were not able to.
Kiana Michaan: I would love to hear maybe some kind of highlights or moments where of policy or movement wins. throughout your work on policies that you really worked on and kind of that felt like turning points also collectively in terms of those wins.
Ramón Cruz: Well, I would say, you know, especially I was, I don't know if lucky is the word but privileged, you know, to be leading the Sierra Club at a very, you know, specific moment.
both internally and externally. And I could [00:11:00] take your questions in two different ways, you know, the internal part is all the journey of Sierra Club in terms of centering. You know, justice centering equity, centering racial justice and that struggle and that came to one of the climax of that journey happened during my presidency.
The other part was, you know, the election to onset Donald Trump. Then you know, bringing Biden as as a president because that I mean, I know that currently there's so many things, you know, on the left is not of course, uh, you know, focusing a lot, especially in the war, in, in Gaza.
You know, there are many things that that. You know, people are not happy about, but the Biden presidency has been transformative you know, like no other in, you know, in I think in recent history, and especially for environmental issues. So it has been [00:12:00] transformative because you know, you have the inflation reduction act.
I was able to You know, work a lot on that. And of course, you know, this is always the work of many people and many interests. And even though, even with what we may call poison pills in there, that was that a whole struggle to get that pass. And, you know, with the problem of having such a sure you know, small you know, majority.
In Senate, then, you know, gave all the power to one senator from a cold mind, you know, from a cold state that made a lot of those final decisions. However, It is unprecedented anywhere in the world where you have a piece of legislation with so many incentives that really change the you know, the balance here for clean to put the US back on track to a clean economy.
And and yeah, that has, [00:13:00] was unheard of to, you know, to have 370 billion. And when you put it together with the infrastructure. With the bipartisan infrastructure bill, then it's, you know, more than a trillion dollars on investing in a clean economy, in the clean economy of the future now.
And so, so yeah, so that, you know, I prefer if we were going to be anyway, fighting the drilling in in the Gulf, in Alaska you know, the fighting for justice, especially in Cancer Alley in Louisiana. You know, in communities in Houston, I prefer to do that with 370 billion you know, that allows for this transition to happen than doing it any way without, you know, and so that was really special.
Then the the other you know, piece when you have all of that together with like an initiative, like Justice40, where, when he's, you know, where he's looking to invest. [00:14:00] 40 percent of those revenues into communities that have been traditional these disadvantage, of course, it took some time to define who, which communities are going to be those.
But it is something that we have not seen in a long time. The strengthening of the car standards. Strengthening of power power plant rules and regulations methane the national ambient air quality standards. You know, it is actually something that we have not seen at least in 30 years.
50 years, depending on what you're measuring, eh, or something that it's very new.
Kiana Michaan: I'll just say in terms of big picture, obviously, I do not agree with many positions of the government, the current administration. I mean, it's like complex, but from an environmental, from a environmental and energy perspective.
[00:15:00] perspective in terms of what has been passed domestically. It's groundbreaking and who has been placed in all of these important federal offices, people who are really able to significant change. And yeah, I mean, I feel like every week we're seeing kind of new funding from DOE for an EPA for different really important initiatives.
So it is a very exciting time and there's so much opportunity as well for to get involved with all of these incentives and fundings for many aspects, whether it's, you know, clean energy or cleaning up pollution, you know, building new infrastructure. So I'm very excited to see the fruits of that over the coming years.
Ramón Cruz: You know, it's also, this is a reminder that this has to be a people's movement and that we need to elect, you know, People that, that resemble those aspirations of this society. So I don't [00:16:00] want to blame, I mean, it sounds like I'm defending a lot of the Biden administration, but it's also, we have to take responsibility.
You know, in great part, because we need to elect. Much better you know, elected officials that could carry forward that. I have no doubt that we would have had you know, a very transformative administration in all or in all ways, if we would have had a more majority in the Senate. When we started, I remember back in the primaries, he was not the most progressive in terms of environment.
But as he was gaining momentum, he was able to adopt you know, the policies of others and make it its own. And ultimately what I'm interested is that people you know, take that responsibility, make that advocacy, elect people there that can support these policies, because ultimately what became the inflation reduction act was a [00:17:00] diluted version of what was his.
Platform for election that was built back better and build back better was no other than a slightly diluted version of what was the Green New Deal that, you know, pushed forward by you know, Representative Ocasio Cortez by AOC and also by by Senator Markey and many other champions in Congress that was bringing these forward.
You know, again, I want to make emphasis that we often focus on those leaders and those protagonists, but what is important is that people get active and ultimately bring forward more people that will bring those progressive views. Forward.
Kiana Michaan: Yes. And it's so therefore so important to vote if you can vote in this country.
And I'm inspired by all the people working to help mobilize to elect climate candidates, both [00:18:00] individuals and organizations, and We need more people, more elected officials who are running on platforms that really support environmental and climate issues, but yes, it's, this progress couldn't have happened without all of this years and years of work that led to that, you know.
The fight is kind of never over
In a sense, because there's always more to advocate and to work towards. So I think, yeah, going back to what you were saying about your time at Sierra Club, that's, you know, on an organization that also has, a complex history in terms of exclusion and its founding.
And yeah, I'm curious, you were starting to touch on how you were able to reconcile with the history of the organization and bring internal change in your time there.
Ramón Cruz: Yeah. I mean, and again, it's I may have, you know, a peak in a moment or in a, I mean, that is part [00:19:00] of a journey that started by others.
So I can not, you know, Take credit for all of that, you know, it's I think the the movement for social, you know, justice and for environmental justice is a journey. And so Sierra Club, I think it's a complex and big enough organization to to, Absorb many of these changes, but you know, you can imagine how if we have 64 chapters and more than 180 groups, basically every city from Alabama to Idaho to Michigan to New York City has a group.
And so. You can imagine those are all very different views and very different social contexts. You know, from rural to urban areas. So it is you know, it is in that context that I would say that, you know, a legacy organization like Sierra [00:20:00] Club you know, it's complex and it has changed over the years.
It is, I think now, what, 132 years. You know, so, it, but I guess one of those peaks you know, moments of inflection that that can change legacy organizations was the murder of George Floyd. And and I think there was no institution in the States that was not you know, shaken by that incident, you know, and that and so I, I was president when when that happened.
And so it was we were able to, I guess question many things and how the effects of systemic racism had influenced the organization. And and yeah, that moment there was these blogs that, you know, we published to question our past question, you know, from John Muir even that that, you know, for many is like, like.
Know, it's kind of like the saint patron of conservative [00:21:00] conservationism in the states and in the world, you know? So, and at that moment I remember that we were centering so much racial justice and equity. There was a big pushback, especially from more traditional or conservative people in the organization.
And and so there was a big debate and and I want to, I will share something that that I wrote in San Francisco Chronicle. You know, that it's sort of like a birthplace, you know, California and the Sierra. Nevada is the birthplace of the Sierra Club. And and, you know, with that, there was a big pushback basically saying, you know, we have to stay in our lane and lane, meaning the environmental lane, don't get into all these social issues that may divide us and and I wrote back then, you know, in the middle of that controversy Let's see.
Well, I, you know, I mentioned how I wanted to share the [00:22:00] road of of environmental advocacy or those lanes, you know, with as many people as possible. So I wrote, and I quote here, I want to, I want you all to understand why it is important that Sierra Club's lane in the environmental movement be broad enough to include people like me.
I want to share my story. I come from a colonized place where people are often discriminated against and robbed of agency. By the leaders charged with our fates. I'm Puerto Rican and I'm Latino. I'm American. Puerto Ricans are Americans, even if not by choice. I have four uncles that fought in the Korean war against their will.
One of them died in battle, but many people like mine were able to thrive in this country, thanks to access to opportunity, education, and privilege. If not for what some people call reverse discrimination I wouldn't be president of Sierra club today. I'm proudly and unapologetically. The result of affirmative action program.
These were relatively short lived efforts lasting just a [00:23:00] couple of decades. Meant to correct for centuries of denying women and people of color, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would not have been able to attend an Ivy league school without affirmative action. Those programs do not exist today.
And as a result, many students do not receive access to high quality education. I'm also of mixed race before 1967. My parents would not have been able to get married in several states as one was black and the other one white. The idea that people of different races shouldn't marry may seem absurd today, but many people were complacent about it back then.
Perhaps they thought they were staying in their lane. In the same time period, the Sierra Club's lane often excluded black people like my father and grandfather. As members, as it was an invitation only organization with some people that formerly owned other people, things are different today. Things in large part to [00:24:00] people of color and white allies who fought to open the doors of these organizations to people like me, but this does not mean that there is no discrimination in the environmental movement for many years.
I was the darkest in the room. The one with the cute Spanish accent who speaks funny. Even though I can communicate in four languages, English is not my native tongue. Being conscious of that and how my race is perceived makes me always feel like I'm walking on eggshells, especially when entering the halls of places like Princeton or big green groups like the Sierra Club.
I suspect that most women and people of color would understand what I mean, as there is not an inherited confidence. That comes from not being questioned or not doubting yourself. That is privilege. The opposite is the feeling that you always have to compensate for a short coming that is just perceived as an inferior inherited condition.
So that's why I cannot change lanes [00:25:00] because for me, there is no other lane. The only progressive lane I can be is one that recognizes and celebrates all my identities. I hope that Sierra Club supporters concerned about whether we focus on a narrow definition of the environment can find a way to broaden our idea of the Sierra Club's lane to help us build an organization, an environmental movement that is inclusive, celebrates diversity, fights climate change, as well as systemic racism, and centers equity and justice in everything we do.
But yeah, that was that was what Sierra Club was in the middle of. You know, especially in those in that year after George Floyd's assassination.
Kiana Michaan: Thank you for sharing that. That was very powerful. And I think your experience in the movement is relatable to many people. I think there's more, hopefully more sensitivity of the differences in our experiences as we come to this work from such different [00:26:00] backgrounds and identities that inform the work we do.
And I think that's also what you read as a good segue into what I wanted to talk about next, which is Puerto Rico, and I know you have worked there as well, doing environmental work, and I would just love to talk a little bit about how that history of colonialism and it continues to be, you know, a territory of the U.
S., how that impacts the environmental work, and I'm very curious to hear your experience of kind of doing environmental work in that particular context in addition to the unique challenges that small islands face with climate and, you know, resiliency and energy challenges.
Ramón Cruz: Yes, certainly. And so I will just I guess, speak you know, about a few things and then.
We can continue in that conversation because there's definitely a lot to, to unpack [00:27:00] there. I would stay, I would start by the easier part of answering that question with the small island states and the geographical situation, because of course, under a changing climate, there's going to be so many uncertainties and so many islands are already you know, experiencing You know, difficulties, especially, you know, and are much more vulnerable to the most you know, extreme weather events, you know, say with hurricane, especially a sea level rise.
You know, there's, of course, a vulnerability that doesn't come from other places I mean, from, you know, in any other ways. So, of course, there's a big challenge in terms of adaptation to, to climate change and to a future scene like that. No, then that opens the I guess to a second theme that has to do with economic vulnerability.
Most islands depend, you know, I guess whenever [00:28:00] people think of islands and the economy would be like, well, they're probably dependent or tourism sometimes fishing, although it's mostly sub say, you know, for subsistence for you know, survival, et cetera, rather than. That necessarily a big industry fisheries.
But buddy, but of course, you know, the, uh, the health of a coral reef is very important for the you know, daily subsistence it, but but with tourism the point I want to bring is that whenever they're vulnerable to an extreme event, that's an industry that suffers a lot. And so that brings them into, you know, most islands to an economic vulnerability of something that it's a product, as a product is a luxury good.
And so you're dependent on wealthy people and how they decide to spend their money. It's not it's not necessarily something [00:29:00] that it's a necessity, right? So that again gives that economic vulnerability. Then, you know, a third stage in that, that, you know, or that argument leads us is, you know, depending on wealthy people, wealthy countries.
And and then, you know, you're as dependent for so many decades and centuries you know, and it's a way of you know, of colonialism. And so, and so then that brings us to to a fourth layer of that argument that it's Colonialism and capitalism per se. You know, because something, I mean that small islands and of course including Puerto Rico a major issue that dependency and that colonial past because that colonial past.
There is no place in the world where the colonial past has come just by altruism. Even when it comes to religion, there's some level of you know, that [00:30:00] may be used as an excuse to, for domination, right? And so, and so, it was always a past based on extractivism and, you know, so the extractive industries is really what played out.
And so what we deal with you know, in places like Puerto Rico with that past of extraction it's all the then the social consequences of that, you know, and having those social inequalities that plays in. So that's also why the. You know, challenge of climate change cannot be divorced from all the other issues that has to do with economic stability for the most, you know, for a not only having a good environment, but that everybody can enjoy that and that can also be able to maximize their potential while [00:31:00] minimizing its impact.
No. And so, but those, you know, those things are related who to who do we have in power and who gets to vote or what a collective you know, can go forward and present themselves to elections, you know, and so all of those, you know, the intersectionality. Of all those issues is very relevant because we're not only talking about just the effects of sea level rise and extreme weather, but it's the capacity to you know, come back and the capacity to transition to a clean economy, but also doing it in a way that we don't repeat the problems of the past you know, with with that history of extractivism and colonialism and capitalism.
Kiana Michaan: Yes, absolutely. Colonialism, capitalism, and the fossil fuel economy are intimately related because they're both I mean, [00:32:00] they're the system of extraction for profit at any cost, and that cost is generally people's lives. And I think looking at sort of the relationship between countries or those in the Global North and South, just the Global North really has, I think, a moral imperative or responsibility to be funding.
the clean energy transition for countries in the global South. And I think as well as, you know, mitigation, there has been some progress in those international negotiations, but a lot of it takes place as a form of loans. And I think it's just, it's not enough at all. It's kind of laughable a little bit to see like the amount of historical harm that's been caused.
And then. How small, what is being offered in the face of [00:33:00] such stakes? I think following Hurricane Maria, which was so devastating in so many ways, one thing that has come out of that is much more energy justice work happening, whether it's, you know, locally owned solar being developed and exposing where there's need to build more capacity and resilience in the energy system.
I'll end on this question, which is when you're Given all the work you've done in policy, both in the U. S. and in Puerto Rico, when you're thinking about a just, equitable climate future, what are you envisioning, and what's giving you hope for the future?
Ramón Cruz: You know, it's that, of course, Hurricane Maria presented a huge opportunity.
It's frustrating because, for me, the government has focused On the wrong strategies, even though we have a great I mean, in Puerto Rico, when I say we in Puerto Rico, we have you know, a lot of [00:34:00] resources, best of all solar we have great goals. We have a law that, you know, well, he's supposed to get us to you know, a hundred percent.
You know, renewable by renewables by 2050. However, you have to start that work now. And the government has only focused in developing the badly named natural gas, basically methane gas industry. and developing the infrastructure for that. If you're going to be, and they jumped their federal regulations that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission provides, they went without permits, built a liquefied natural gas terminal in one of the most populated places in the Caribbean.
Once you start building that kind of infrastructure, all they say, well, there is a transit, there is a gain for climate change. Well, [00:35:00] yeah, going between the worst fuel to the second worst fuel provides a little improvement. Yes, but that is not what we're supposed to be doing now. You know, if you would have told me that natural gas was going to be a transition, a fuel 25, 30 years ago, I would have accepted that.
But when you have places like Hawaii within the States and many other places around the world transitioning too aggressively to a clean future without fossil fuels, And you're like right now building infrastructure for that, you're going to lock yourself at least, you know, for the next 20 to 30 years to steal a fossil fuel, a dying industry that it's already has, you know, that it's trying to get life support from anywhere.
And so that is unfortunate. Having said that. When I think of, you know, being, you know, Puerto Rico being part of the U. S. and [00:36:00] accessing a lot of that federal funding for clean energy, it is very inspiring. Unfortunately, it's not by what the government is doing, but by what communities are doing. You know, when you have funding for example, for a community solar projects, of course, you have in Puerto Rico.
You know, organizations like Casa Pueblo that has not used any of that money to build the clean energy future that they want to see. And so you have that kind of of community initiatives gives me hope because ultimately that's what we would like to You know, to move towards our communities becoming much more independent much more focused on sharing the benefits of a clean economy.
You know, what they have built in the town of Adjuntas, where some key businesses are still running. On that, you know, and in [00:37:00] the next hurricane that unfortunately will come at some point in the near future that will be, that can, you know, come back, be much more resilient. And so that is actually where we should be you know, heading to everyone to have you know, that kind of example.
And so that, that of course gives me a lot of hope.
Kiana Michaan: Yes, people power and community power, it's what's driving this work forward as we've touched on. What else is bringing you joy in your work, Urbi? I know that you are a very joyful person, so.
Ramón Cruz: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say Music and and dance, spontaneous same gathering.
That, that gives me a, yeah, and that gives me a lot of joy. Um, you know, I'm a an extremely social person, so, so yeah, whenever there's an impromptu gathering that ends up with music and dance I'm very happy. And and it's [00:38:00] very important that movements, you know, find that space because otherwise you know, we would be angry all the time.
Because of, you know, the present conditions that we're trying to change. And so you need to recharge you know, somewhere. And and so it's important to to of course you know, nourish that, that core that gives you know, the space to then you know, come back and and be able to fight the good fights.
Kiana Michaan: I feel the same way. The joy of community and dance and gathering sustains us in this work, which can be heavy at times.
Ramón Cruz: So many things reasons to, to You know, to get joy and I'm fortunate enough to have you know, a backyard where I can grow my own food. And so I think that is also, you know, a practice and a, and something that gives me joy is like, wow, when you see.
You know, the journey [00:39:00] from a seed to a plant and to a crop that then you can eat and that goes back into the earth and composting and all of that, wow, it's a, you know, it's a miracle that that we should enjoy every day as well.
Kiana Michaan: Absolutely. What a blessing. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening.
Climate with Kiana is hosted and produced by Kiana Michaan. This episode was edited and co produced by Lucy Little. Original theme music by Naima Mackrel. This podcast is recorded and produced in New York City on unceded Lenape land. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend, leave a comment, and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts.
For more information about the guests and topics discussed, please visit climatewithkiana. com. Until the next time, be well and stay [00:40:00] joyous.