In this episode, we hear from award winning Irish investigative journalist, Philip Boucher-Hayes. We discuss his new documentary, Global Warning, a three part series, written & hosted by Philip. His documentary series unpacks the current impacts of climate change, highlights how communities are responding & adapting, and explores solutions in the transition away from fossil fuels. In our conversation we discuss Philip’s career covering climate change and the biodiversity crisis, key moments in the docu series, and the role of media in environmental communication.
In this episode, we hear from award winning Irish investigative journalist, Philip Boucher-Hayes. We discuss his new documentary, Global Warning, a three part series, written & hosted by Philip. His documentary series unpacks the current impacts of climate change, highlights how communities are responding & adapting, and explores solutions in the transition away from fossil fuels. In our conversation we discuss Philip’s career covering climate change and the biodiversity crisis, key moments in the docu series, and the role of media in environmental communication.
Watch Global Warning on Al-Jareeza:
Inside the planet’s most urgent climate warning | Global Warning E1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8vI5_gN90g
Inside the planet’s race to adapt | Global Warning E2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwgqVoFhVNM
Inside the planet’s fight to end fossil fuels | Global Warning E3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlNuYqrXNS0
RESOURCES:
Hot Mess - Podcast - RTÉ Radio 1
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/hot-mess/
Manual for Environmental Justice
Bangladesh has become much more resilient to cyclones, saving many lives - Our World in Data
CREDITS:
Hosted and produced by Kiana Michaan
Edited by Maxfield Biggs
Music by Naima Mackrel
Kiana: [00:00:00] Welcome to Climate with Kiana, a podcast about climate solutions shared through a framework of joy and justice. I'm your host, Kiana Michaan. A solar and clean energy advocate passionate about just climate action. This season, let's dig deeper into solutions to the climate crisis through inspiring conversations with climate experts who are leading important and innovative work to shape a more just and sustainable world.
Let's cultivate hope and joy by exploring these climate solutions and visioning new possibilities together.
I'm so happy to welcome today's guest, Philip Boucher-Hayes. Philip is an award-winning investigative journalist and broadcaster from Ireland. We are here today to discuss his new documentary Global Warning, A three-part series hosted by Philip.[00:01:00]
The first episode into the storm highlights the immediate and escalating effects of climate change. The second episode against the Tide explores how countries and communities are responding to rising sea levels, increased flooding, and more frequent droughts. And the third and final episode, decarbonizing the global economy, addresses the urgent need to transition away from fossil fuels.
All three episodes of Global Warning are available to watch for free on Al Jazeera's YouTube channel. Thank you so much for being here, Philip.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Hello Kiana, how are you? Yes, my name is Philip Boucher-Hayes. I have been a journalist for a very long time now, going into God nearly 30 years. Uh, and I have been reporting the climate and biodiversity twin crises for 20, 25 years now.
Amongst, uh, other things. And this documentary series is my latest attempt to get it right because we obviously [00:02:00] haven't done that yet.
Kiana: Well, I'm excited to talk about this documentary and. As you said, you've been doing this a long time, so also just interested to hear your perspective on these issues. Um, how it's, you know, changed, evolved over time as you've been doing this work.
Uh, how we can employ different strategies to, to addressing it and how you've, I imagine, had to do that, um, in your career. So yeah, really appreciative of your work and excited to explore it some more.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Thank you very much. Um, you know, it changes all the time. Each series, each documentary, each radio or podcast series that I've made is always situated in a different time.
And at this moment, there's two things I think that are going on at the first is. The media landscape is obviously completely fractured in a way that it wasn't when I first started out where you could make one television documentary [00:03:00] or series, and you could be pretty much reliant that if you did a half decent job, you would be the water cooler conversation the following day.
Obviously that's not the case any longer where there are so many different pulls on people's eyeballs now. Um, the second thing is that obviously with so much going on at a geopolitical global level, uh, to distract attention from the climate crisis, that is what people have done. They have. From this, they've taken off this juggernaut.
An attempt to, uh, both address that and say, this problem hasn't gone away. You know, folks, and also to, um, bring all of [00:04:00] these disparate pieces of information together because people are making really good documentaries about. The Amazon about how close we're getting to the tipping points, uh, about the, the failures to adapt or the successes in adaptation and so on.
Uh, but nobody had done that job of just saying, okay, let's do the big picture stuff. Let us take a step back from this hyper object, you know, rather than standing right up against the wall with your nose to a brick and saying, what is it that we're looking at here? Let's take a step back and say, oh, it's a cathedral, or, oh.
This is how big this problem is and these are the approaches that are being taken to it around the world. So that was what it was that we tried to do with as you, you very able to get very eloquently summed it up there. The way that I think about the three programs is, um, slightly more prosaic. I think of it as program one is how [00:05:00] screwed are we?
And we ask the scientists, how are we? The second one is so. If we're screwed, how do we adapt to being screwed? And the third program is how do we unscrew ourselves?
Kiana: Three very important questions. So as you mentioned, you've hosted a number of environmental and climate docs over the years, um, including Peak Oil, rising Tides, hot Air, Ireland's climate crisis.
Future shock. The last drop. You've also produced and hosted a climate action podcast on RT Radio, one Hot Mess. I'm just curious to hear how you've experienced sort of the, the power of media in your career to, you know, educate and inspire change, um, and if your kind of approach to making your your shows has, has changed over time.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: It's been a really hard [00:06:00] lesson to learn and to accept over the course of my career that the power and the impact of media is diminishing all the time, particularly traditional legacy mainstream media. Uh, where I work in the, uh, the public broadcaster, the equivalent of NPR on radio or PBS on television, I have a foot in at either camp.
Um. It's frustrating when you see the audience going elsewhere, you know that you should be trying to follow that audience and meet them in the places that they're going to. But I'm a 54-year-old man. I'm not gonna look anything other frankly than ridiculous on TikTok trying to do shuffle dances or interpretive modern dance to express the climate crisis. So. I continue doing what it is.
Kiana: You could give it a try. I'm,
Philip Boucher-Hayes: I know I [00:07:00] never say never, but, uh, I have, you know, but this much dignity in this latter phase of my career, I wanna hold onto whatever shreds but remain. And so, yes, there. Increasingly limited capacity of media to do the job because there are so many different distractions and so many different places that people's eyeballs have turned to.
But what do you do? Do you stop? No, you don't. Uh, so what I have done in my storytelling is. I've gone from being a very nerdy, wonky kind of journalist who immersed himself completely in policy and believed in the early stages of my career that if you just presented people with the numbers and the facts, well then that was all the persuasion that they were going to need to realizing.
No, you have to employ every single method possible. You have to use human stories [00:08:00] people. Love stories. That's how we learn from each other through anecdote, uh, rather than through facts and numbers and evidence-based arguments, I believe in awful lot of the time, and also through art, through music, and through.
Beautiful images. You know, when we came to make these documentaries, one of the lessons that I had learned previously was the only way to get people to sit through an hour long conversation, essentially about climate policy, is to make it look as beautiful as possible, A love letter. To the planet, uh, as Attenborough esque as possible.
All of those, uh, you know, nature documentaries that we used to watch and love as kids, but with a different message to them. So yeah, every single trick and device, uh, on that bow are ones that we try now to pluck and hopefully, you know, [00:09:00] it'll land eventually.
Kiana: I mean, the cinematography is really beautiful in global warning, all the, the sweeping drone shots of the landscape, like there's so many beautiful moments.
It, it is captivating. So I think definitely accomplish that. So you travel all over the world in it. Um, hence all the, the beautiful cinematography in so many places. I think you go to over eight countries, maybe 10 countries, um, including Greenland. Gorgeous shots there. Um, the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Malawi, Bangladesh, Wales, England, Ukraine, the us.
Um, so many places, but I'm curious to hear kind of more from the be behind the scenes perspective. You are flying all over the world, of course, to make this series, um, and. There's a point in the film when you're in Cambridge talking to, uh, an expert about the challenges of sustainable air travel and the need for stronger regulation and policy to [00:10:00] support greater aviation fuel efficiency.
And, you know, how do we make the aviation industry, uh. More sustainable overall. Um, and but you also point out, I think the really important part of, in terms of equity and the need for the access to travel to be greater for globally, um, for those who historically haven't had access to, to more travel. Um, so I'm just curious from a production standpoint, how you are thinking about producing a film like this sustainably. Um, of course flying, but beyond that, right, what that approach is as well.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Well, first off, yes, I did fly all around the world making a documentary about the perils of what happens when people fly all around the world, and the deniers and the delays had an absolute feel day with that because they use this act of obvious hypocrisy on my part to try and dismiss the message of, uh, the entire series.[00:11:00]
But I was able to rebut those arguments by saying, look, play the man. Absolutely. Don't play the ball. Play the man because I am a hypocrite. But that doesn't change the validity of anything that any of these scientists are saying. So yeah, Philip Boucher-Hayes is a big fat hypocrite, but that ball is still traveling towards your face, uh, at pace, uh, and you'd really better pay attention to it.
What we did from the point of view of trying to minimize or reduce our really rather excessive footprint, because you're right, we did travel to 10 countries where we could, we took ferries, we traveled by road, but because we were trying to do this on an incredibly small budget. And you still have to pay your cameraman and your director for travel days.
So if you're spending 11 days on a ferry, they're being paid the full rate. And frankly, the documentaries budget wouldn't have sustained that. [00:12:00] So what we did instead, rather than the traditional method of flying to a destination, filming, flying home, seeing what you have recalibrating, adjusting rescripting, you know, moving things around a little bit, we.
Removed those return leg flights and we just kept on going. We basically did a big circle around the world and we filmed nonstop and traveled nonstop for 60 days and it reduced our, uh, flight miles by less than half. But, uh, it reduced them very, very considerably. Uh, and it kept us going. Now it got a little bit confusing at times.
You would wake up somewhere and say, why am I so hot if I'm in Greenland? Oh, no, that's because I'm actually in Florida. It got a little bit confused, uh, from time to time, uh, and a little bit tired, but it was still, it was an immense [00:13:00] privilege. To get to travel to those places and the remote inaccessible parts of those places to see at firsthand what it is that's unfolding and the work that these scientists are doing and what it is that we have to do.
And, but yeah, it was, uh, it was a very considerable amount of travel. It was a gross act of hypocrisy. But if, as I say, it doesn't change. What the science has recorded about what is happening in our, our planet.
Kiana: I want to go through and talk a little bit more granularly about different moments in the documentary, um, moments I enjoyed, and then also hear from you about some of your favorite moments, um, filming and what that experience was like you say, A lot of beautiful, poignant.
Reflections over the course of the film as you're having these conversations with local people in their communities, seeing how they're experiencing climate change and many [00:14:00] scientists and experts. Um, and I think a lot of your, your reflections and takeaways are just really meaningful and, uh, definitely stuck with me.
So, yeah, I'm just gonna go through a few of them and we'll, we'll chat about them. So at one point you say. I've learned the depth of the love that we feel for the natural world and even more so for our children. Um, why is love such a vital part of climate solutions and climate action?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Love is the solution to this problem and the reason why is
because of what the opposite of love is. I don't think that the opposite of love is hate. I think the opposite of love is indifference. Uh, love and hate are not similar emotions, but they're on the same kind of spectrum, the opposite. Of [00:15:00] feeling intense. Love for somebody is feeling nothing for somebody.
Absolute indifference, and we are growing increasingly indifferent to this crisis and to the impact that this crisis is going to have on our children. Those children who are in kindergarten now are entering elementary school now, will at the end of their lives, be living in a world which, if we don't course correct, is going to be by the end of this century in or around three degrees of additional warming above pre-industrial levels.
That's a hellscape of a world. To live and people describe metaphorically the climate crisis as being a cliff edge as we approach all of these tipping points. I don't think that that's correct. I think that it's happening now and it's, it's a hill. It's a hill that's getting increasingly steeper, and we [00:16:00] were in control of our descent, but now we're not.
We're falling, we're tumbling, we're picking up pace, and we're picking up more injuries the further and the faster that we fall, and we're losing all of our money out of our pockets as we fall as well. But the most obscene thing about this is. We're pushing our children down that hill in front of us and how can we claim to really love them if we are indifferent to the fact that we're doing this?
So yeah, love is the solution. If you have any love of the world around you or the people in it, the people closest to you. Well, then we have to solve this.
Kiana: There's a, a moment in the film, I believe it's when you're in Sweden, talking about the youth climate protests and, and Greta Thunberg, where you say, we must speak with our kids about the loneliness and hopelessness of [00:17:00] the climate crisis.
How are you thinking about that emotional challenge, particularly as we're talking about when it comes to, to kids and the future?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Let me tell you a really, really charming story that I heard very recently from a friend who's a scientist. He was giving two classes on success of Fridays to the same school of, um, seven, 8-year-old kids.
And he divided it into, we're gonna do, uh. Flora. The first weekend we're gonna do fauna. The second week he was talking about the biodiversity crisis, and he told them about this orchids that grew in their part of Ireland and how particularly at that time of year, it was small. It was low to the ground.
It was really very vulnerable. And he went away. And he came back the following week and they said, Mr. Mr. Dunford, come, come look. [00:18:00] Uh, look at what we've done. Uh, and he saw in the grass behind the school that they had, um, they had all these feathers from a crow's tail stuck into the ground, and he was going, oh God, no.
They've killed a crow. What on earth did they do? He said, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. You don't understand Mr. Dunford. They had stuck all of these feathers that they'd found into the ground where they had noticed that this orchid was emerging and they didn't want the school groundskeeper to end up mowing the orchids.
And he translated that, that his takeaway message was he'd given the kids a job. He hadn't just given them information and sat there talking to them. He had given them a role in changing for the better their environment. And that's a really powerful lesson that don't just sit there talking at people, give them something [00:19:00] that they can do that makes them feel like they are making a difference.
And particularly with children, that's how you give them hope. You give them purpose first.
Kiana: At one point you say it would be a mistake to learn only from rich countries. There are much poorer countries in the climate change firing line now who are doing more with less. To me, this really highlights sort of environmental injustice globally.
Um, and how. Kind of unequal what we have in different countries are, but how innovation and ingenuity doesn't necessarily rely on, you know. What resources are available? How are you thinking about inequity and global environmental justice as you're approaching your reporting and storytelling around climate?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Well, well done. You, I'm really glad that you honed in on that moment in [00:20:00] three hours of television. That was, I think, one of the most important messages that, one of the things that I was most excited about because yes, absolutely. We, in the developed world. Tend to think of the responses to the global climate crisis as being, uh, first world countries handing the developed world, climate finance or loss and damage money.
And we only think of the traffic as moving in one direction when in fact there is so much dialogue that can go backwards and forwards. And we saw a wonderful illustration of this when we were in Bangladesh. Uh, as as to why it is that one of the most climate affected countries in the world, uh, a place that sees cyclones from the Bay of Bengal sweeping in ever more regularly, uh, onto their shores, but people aren't dying.
People aren't getting killed in, uh, these [00:21:00] events when they happen where they are in the United States, in Europe. And the reason is entirely a mentality. One, we in the developed world think that we can live behind our electric gates and once we have closed them, that we're safe and we're secure behind them when in fact we're not.
Thing that will keep us safe, keep us all safe in these situations. Is your community, your solidarity with your neighbors, this attitude that they have in Bangladesh, that nobody is safe until we are all safe, until we know that everybody is in the cyclone shelter or. In, in our case in this country, we were pummeled back, uh, at the start of this year by an absolutely horrendous storm.
And there was a national policy debate about why don't we have more emergency [00:22:00] electricity generators? Uh, but the conversation that we didn't have that I saw in my reporting from the affected places, was that the most important thing. In those communities who were without power for two, three, in some cases for four weeks, what mattered was their neighbors?
What mattered was the people who were able to bring them hot meals, bring them firewood, or when it all got too much and too cold and too miserable in their houses. They said, look, just. Come and sleep in our living room tonight. Be warm. And that mattered much, much more. That's why we said in the program that we in the West measure our resilience in terms of the height of our flood defenses or the number of emergency generators, where as in Bangladesh, they quite wisely.
Realize that it was the strength and the depth of [00:23:00] their social solidarity. That was one of the most important things in learning how to adapt to what it is that's coming.
Kiana: I think that's one of the most important takeaways from the film, and I absolutely agree. In my own experience, I think. Community care, mutual aid is one of the most vital climate solutions and for, for resilience, we all need community. No one can do anything alone. And I think western culture really does not place enough value and undervalue the power and importance of having strong community. So I think it was really touching to see, um.
As you just explained and expressed in the film, just how effective that. Communities coming together to just care for each other and say, is everyone here? Is everyone okay? How genuinely effective that is? I mean, of course, ideally you have [00:24:00] also, you know, physical and financial infrastructure to go along with that.
You, we want an all of above approach, right? You don't want it to be that's all you have. But, um, I think seeing those different perspectives and it's, uh, it's poignant too because. I think it also can highlight sort of sometimes the lack of empathy and understanding between the just wide variation of circumstances that people in communities are facing, um, and how that's impacted by, by climate change.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Yeah. One of the things that I've learned in my own reporting is that. Particularly when I think I'm gonna disagree with somebody. 'cause there's so much disagreement in public conversation right now that it's a really good idea to spend a long time listening and understanding, walking a few miles basically in that person's shoes before you [00:25:00] tell them what your opinion is.
Because very often, uh, even just the active listing gives you. Sympathy gives you appreciation and understanding and that's, that's something that there's a shortage of at the moment. We could all do with doing a lot more listing, I think.
Kiana: I agree. Okay. Few more things I wanna highlight.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Please go ahead.
Kiana: Which is a little bit more on the. Political financial side. I believe it's when you're in Finland, in the film, um, and having a conversation about like the cost of energy and a bunch of things, and. You say the very important reflection of how can financial motivation in the green transition be leveraged? Can capitalism ever work?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: All we were doing was we were reflecting at that point in the film on how it is that you could harness that most [00:26:00] basic of human emotions, greed. To try and help, uh, solve this problem. And, uh, you can in part use it. You know, one of the reasons that so many trillions of dollars of investment have gone into renewables is that it's a good financial bet.
Um, as to the bigger question about the need to reform capitalism and its capitalism at the source of many of these problems, you bet you it is. But you know what? We don't have time for reinventing capitalism. I'm sorry, just if, if you sit down and you look at what the scientists are saying and you look at the physics and then you say, okay, and how long will it take us to implement this social revolution?
How long would it even take us to agree a manifesto? We don't have the luxury of that kind of. Um, opportunity. So we just have to get on with it [00:27:00] within the systems that already exist. And the encouraging thing is that even if we do use those unjust and very often wonky systems, um. And corrupt systems, uh, that we have the methodology, we have the actual solutions to, if not solve this, at least make a really serious dent in this problem.
And I think that I would rather get on with doing that than trying to reinvent capitalism right now and reform it.
Kiana: We do need to get on with it, which is, uh, a good segue into the next thing I wanted to touch on, which is, you know, here in the US in the last, uh, presidential administration, we saw the biggest investment into clean energy and climate solutions this country had ever seen.
It was. An exciting, optimistic time. Uh, and then unfortunately we [00:28:00] are now in the Dark ages and there's a moment in the film where you say, for over a hundred years, the world has looked to the US in times of crisis. And now it is the crisis. It's turned, its back on climate action and renewed its vows with oil and gas, gas and oil, um, flow through the veins of US politics.
Um. How do we approach these? This is a big question in a sense, but how do we approach these geopolitical challenges to implementing effective global climate policy and action? I mean, I have my own thoughts on this, but I maybe I'm more curious about your perspective, given I know you also, um, I. Earlier in your career worked as like a war correspondent. Um, and I, I think given the scope of your career and the global nature of the work you've done
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Yeah. look it, it is a tough moment. And we did look to, particularly in Ireland, I not only was [00:29:00] America our hero and our big brother, it was our savior as well from the time. Potato famine in the middle of the 19th century, America has had Ireland's back, so it's really quite a psychological wrench for us as well to have to start thinking about you guys as the problem.
And you are the problem right now. But I think the thing that we have to hold onto is the March of human civilization is and continues to be in the right direction. Yes, there will always be wars. They are failures of politics and politics as comprised of human beings. So there that will always happen.
But since the enlightenment basically. Human civilization has continued to march in a direction that makes everybody's lives that little bit better. And I don't think that there's any reason to [00:30:00] believe that we're suddenly going to course correct and, you know, start heading 180 degrees, uh, in the wrong direction.
I think quite often about this idea that when you look around the room for your hero, for your leader and you don't see anybody, that that's the point at which you realize, oh God, we have to step up. It's us, it's our job now. And that sits quite uncomfortably with us in Europe. Um, 'cause we have a lot of flaws and a lot of problems as well.
But right now on this issue, on this particular existential crisis, Europe is however Fally saying to the rest of the world, no. Take your leadership from us. And you know what? America, you [00:31:00] will come back if for no other reason than you're turning your backs on a huge amount of money making possibilities, uh, that the green transition presents.
And there are too many people who will say, I'm sorry, this just does not make sense what it is that the Trump administration, uh, is, uh, doing in this area at the moment. And, and you will course correct again.
Kiana: Two other points I wanna highlight in the film, and then I, I want to hear from, from you about any moments that were important to you.
But two other points I found poignant were, um, when you ask the viewer, you know, what are you prepared to give up to save the future? And then towards the very end of the film also, when you're sort of reflecting on all of your travels and concluding, you know, what can an individual do? And you say, [00:32:00] stop acting as an individual.
Act collectively for the common good. Do what you can't do on your own. And which specific things should we do to reduce fossil fuels? All of them. I think that really goes back to what we were saying before about the power of community and how we have to act together. Um, but curious to hear any additional thoughts from you on sort of what, what it means to you to act collectively for the common good and for anyone listening who, how can we connect to.
Being a part of the solutions, being a part of these communally led solutions.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Two things. First, you hit on the really important issue of personal sacrifice and what it's that we're prepared to change, and you ask anybody what it is that they're prepared to change about their life. You know, they're gonna say, frankly, as little as possible, and this is where I think it's really important and really interesting to have conversations with other people [00:33:00] outside your generation, outside of your culture.
Because once you do, you'll see what it is that they're prepared to give up, and it'll make you start questioning your own assumptions and your own privileges. French kids. Were surveyed about their attitudes to flying and, uh, I can't remember so I'm not gonna make up the number, but it was a very significant majority of them said that they were prepared to contemplate only taking one long haul flight in their lives, in their whole lives.
Now, I suppose it's easier for French kids. Living on the, than it would say be for Irish kids, uh, or for people who've never been on a long living in a developing country, but. It, it was a real reality check moment for me, and I just thought, okay, this is something that I have to do more of. [00:34:00] Whenever I think know I've, I've, I've done enough.
Go and have a conversation and chat with anybody else and somebody else, and you'll get a different perspective on it and what it is that you should be prepared to think about changing. The other thing then that you asked me is, uh, the need to act collectively. On this issue of the need to active collectively.
Look, it really struck me standing in the front of a glacier in Greenland, which is moving towards the sea four times faster now than it was 20 years ago. Exactly how puny I was and how ridiculous it is for any one person to think that they're gonna have any impact on something as big as massive as this.
But in so many other places in my reporting, I've seen how enduring and how stickable. Uh, grass root [00:35:00] community initiatives are, but what they're doing is creating networks, creating communities which can turn their hand to solving crises as soon as they present themselves. And that is so much more powerful than any top down plan designed by governments and issues.
That are, uh, uh, decrees, that are issued, are handed out, or, uh, things that people are told to do from national level down. When communities come together and, uh, have a genuine grassroots roots response to something that they see impacting their community, their area. It is to everybody's betterment, and that gives me so much hope for the future because no, individually, Kiana and Philip are not going to achieve a [00:36:00] huge amount, but when we start acting with our neighbors, with our friends. We can get a lot done.
Kiana: We're human ecosystems. I feel like thinking of, there's so much we can learn from nature, you know, the earth is almost telling us the, the solutions in many ways. And, um, I mean, in so much indigenous knowledge and as you said, grassroots organizing, it's really is that. Uh, we're all interconnected and everyone has a role to play that supports everyone else.
And yeah. Lest we not forget that, were there any moments in the filming, it could be even moments that didn't make it to the final cut, but just that were highlights for you or just poignant for you in your experience of, of making the film?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: This is gonna sound really perverse way of answering that question because the things that I reflect on reflect at the end of that project were the things that we didn't get [00:37:00] to film, the places that we didn't get to go. The things that I'm trying to now raise finance for to do a second series because I, I think that any conversation around climate action that doesn't give detailed consideration to what's happening in China.
Isn't really at the races at all, and I'm determined to do some reporting from there, primarily because, not just in my country, but in many countries. The amount of pollution that's being generated by China is so often trotted out as a reason to not do anything. People in Ireland in particular say, oh, we're such a tiny little country.
What does anything that we're going to do make any difference along as our country's as big as China and India that are polluting? Um, that's wonky reasoning because, you know, there are 193 different countries in the world. There are about a hundred that are in population terms, the [00:38:00] same size as Ireland or smaller.
So if we're gonna give ourselves a free pass, we have to give those other a hundred countries a free pass as well. And collectively that adds up to about a third of the world's emissions. So. That's why we have to all do something and nobody gets a free pass in this, but it also. Misses out on this madly underreported fact that yeah, China is building new coal powered, uh, fire state energy generating stations, but they have deployed more solar and more wind than anybody anywhere else in the world and they are now supplying.
Uh, was certainly my part of the world with all of its solar panels and many of the components of its wind turbines. And they're just, they're taking control of the green transition, uh, and they're profiting from it and in a [00:39:00] way that everybody else is being left behind. Uh, and it's not as if we didn't see it coming, and now it seems to be that, because maybe if we don't report it, it won't feel, uh, like it's true or it's really happening. But it is.
Kiana: In closing, I wanted to ask you, what brings you joy in your work and how are you connecting to joy, especially with, you know, heavy topics as we we've discussed? I think goes back to what we were saying towards the beginning of the conversation about how all of the solutions have to be rooted in our love for each other, our communities, and this beautiful earth we're on, right? And the beautiful nature we get to, uh, experience that sustains us and, and bring, gives us life. So, yeah. How, how do you, how do you find that joy?
Philip Boucher-Hayes: But believe you me, there are some days where I just wanna close the curtains and pull the blankets over my [00:40:00] head and say, no, I just can't deal with this anymore.
But the things that do bring me joy are always the small things, the small things in the natural world, uh, appreciating them firsthand, but then also seeing them through the eyes of other communities and seeing how important that these things are. To, um, to people. I did some, uh, quite detailed reporting very recently on what was the largest fish kill in Irish history.
Something that was undoubtedly contributed to and made worse by climate change, which had reduced the flow in rivers and heated up the rivers, reducing the amount of oxygen. Uh, and while that was a terribly, terribly sad thing, talking to people who had lived along this river for their entire lives and seeing the joy that they got from it was something that I [00:41:00] derived a huge amount of pleasure from, uh, myself.
I think about those conversations with those people and how, um, how what it is that we're doing to the world. Is hurting us. I saw it on their faces. I felt it in their psyches. And the way that they described what was happening was that the insults that we are inflicting on the planet are hurting ourselves as well, uh, in a real and tangible way.
And, uh. It was a privilege seeing them, having those conversations, uh, and realizing really clearly that, you know, if we stopped doing this to the planet, we would be so much happier, uh, in ourselves. And making those kind of connections and jumps and logic, uh, and understanding of the complexity of this is something that brings me huge joy [00:42:00] and conversations like this kiana.
Kiana: Oh, thank you. I. Yes, I think I, I feel like I feel inspired often by the love and care that people have for our, you know, the earth, our communities, and just. I think there are so many people like yourself who just care deeply and are, are doing everything they can right to, to move these solutions forward.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: you said it yourself already and it's really very wise. We have to do everything. If you see a solution, if you see an argument be made, if you see a new platform to communicate on, even if that's interpretive dance on TikTok, if you see anything that reduces the amount of carbon that we're pumping into the atmosphere, we have no choice but to do everything.
We're not in a cherry picking moment of luxury. This crisis is so serious and so severe. [00:43:00] All of the scientists that I have talked to have impressed this upon me. We have to do it all.
Kiana: We do. And I will that, as you were saying, that, that reminded me of a moment also in the film, I think towards the end, um, where you're talking to one of the scientists who's working on geoengineering and you, he basically says as you're interviewing him, like he doesn't believe in geoengineering, but he's thinks we're in such dire straits that we need it as an option.
Interesting. I feel like you know that that's a whole other geo engineering's, a whole other can of worms.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Oh yeah.
Kiana: But very interesting.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: I mean, look, it, it's absolutely, it's a Cassandra's box and uh, but he is absolutely right that there is no area of research that should be off limits. The only problem with that mm-hmm is unfortunately, once something has been invented, we know that no matter how dire the consequences are going to be, somebody [00:44:00] somewhere is going to take it upon themselves to use it, and then we're into a different world. But no, look what harm research, what harm knowing we have to go and explore every avenue here.
Kiana: Yes. Well, Philip, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you everyone for listening. Please check out Global Warning available on Al Jazeera's YouTube channel, and Philip really appreciate it. Thank you again.
Philip Boucher-Hayes: Kiana was lovely talking to you. Thank you so much for your time and your interest in the series.
Kiana: Thank you for listening. Climate with Kiana is co-produced by Kiana Michaan and Lucy Little. This episode was edited by Maxfield Biggs. Theme music by Naima Mackrel. Thank you again to the Clean Energy Leadership Institute for their support. This podcast is recorded and produced in New York City on unceded Munsee Lenape land.
If you enjoyed the episode, [00:45:00] please share it with a friend. Leave a comment and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. For more information about the guests and topics discussed, please visit climb it with kiana.com. Until the next time, stay joyous.