In this episode, which was recorded last year in Copenhagen, I speak with Magnus Højberg Mernild at State of Green Denmark. State of Green is a non-profit, public-private partnership between the Danish government and the country’s three leading business associations, encouraging cross-sector collaboration and international knowledge sharing. State of Green is connected to over 600 Danish businesses, agencies, academic institutions, experts and researchers all working to drive the global transition to a sustainable, low-carbon, resource-efficient society. In my conversation with Magnus, we discuss Denmark’s innovation and leadership in sustainability and cover topics including offshore wind, green hydrogen, energy islands and more. Stay tuned for next week’s episode for an even more in-depth conversation on offshore wind in Denmark!
In this episode, which was recorded last year in Copenhagen, I speak with Magnus Højberg Mernild at State of Green Denmark. State of Green is a non-profit, public-private partnership between the Danish government and the country’s three leading business associations, encouraging cross-sector collaboration and international knowledge sharing. State of Green is connected to over 600 Danish businesses, agencies, academic institutions, experts and researchers all working to drive the global transition to a sustainable, low-carbon, resource-efficient society. In my conversation with Magnus, we discuss Denmark’s innovation and leadership in sustainability and cover topics including offshore wind, green hydrogen, energy islands and more.
Stay tuned for next week’s episode for an even more in-depth conversation on offshore wind in Denmark!
RESOURCES:
State of Green
LinkedIn - Magnus Højberg Mernild
https://www.linkedin.com/in/magnusmernild/
Middelgrunden: Wind Turbine Co-operatives
North Sea Energy Island
https://northseaenergyisland.dk/en
CREDITS:
Hosted and produced by Kiana Michaan
Edited by Maxfield Biggs
Music by Naima Mackrel
Kiana: [00:00:00] Welcome to Climate with Kiana, a podcast about climate solutions shared through a framework of joy and justice. I'm your host, Kiana Michaan. A solar and clean energy advocate passionate about just climate action. This season, let's dig deeper into solutions to the climate crisis through inspiring conversations with climate experts who are leading important and innovative work to shape a more just and sustainable world. Let's cultivate hope and joy by exploring these climate solutions and visioning new possibilities together.
Welcome back to the podcast. Last year while I was in Copenhagen, I sat down with Magnus Højberg Mernild, head of PR and External Relations at State of Green, Denmark. State of Green is a nonprofit, public-private partnership between [00:01:00] the Danish government and the country's leading business associations, encouraging cross-sector collaboration and international knowledge sharing.
State of green is connected to over 600 Danish businesses, agencies, academic institutions, experts, and researchers all working to drive the global transition to a sustainable, low carbon resource efficient society. In my conversation with Magnus, we discussed. Denmark's innovation and leadership in sustainability, including offshore wind, green, hydrogen, energy islands, and more.
Here's our conversation.
I am so happy to be here today. I am here in Copenhagen at State of Green. Thank you for having me.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: It's our pleasure.
Kiana: Magnus, could you introduce yourself a little bit and state of green and the wonderful work you're doing here?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Yeah, so we're, we're a small public-private partnership and we sit between the government and the leading Danish business industries.[00:02:00]
In essence, we, um, we look at Danish solutions and experiences over the last, uh, five decades and see how does that fit or tap into global challenges. So we focus on energy and water, um, circular economy, urban development. Our focus is to create the connections with international stakeholders. So some of the learnings from Denmark are actually implement, implemented elsewhere.
You can say the, um, the starting point is that Denmark is a very, very small country. So whatever we do in Denmark, it's essentially drop the ocean. We count for 0.1% of global emissions. So for us, it's very important that all these tangible solutions, but all the also the lessons, they are actually being implemented.
Elsewhere where it has a much greater impact. A good example of that is um, the Danish Energy Agency has what they call energy partnerships with governments all over the world. So that's a government to government partnership where Denmark looks at how can we translate these things that we have been conducting and [00:03:00] implementing over the years in a local context.
And these countries, they account for 70% of global emissions. So that's a good example of how we actually make a real difference outside of our own borders.
Kiana: There's, as we were discussing before, Denmark's emissions are pretty small in the global picture, but the, the leadership shown from decades of moving on the energy transition is really important.
And I think what's unique about what you're doing here is how it is kind of cross sector collaboration. You have so many different areas within sustainability and energy that you're focusing on. Um, and that global cross country also partnership. I'm curious to know if there's been kind of outcomes from the collaborative nature of the work here that you found exciting or interesting.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: A lot of good examples. Yes. I think the starting point again [00:04:00] is that we're such a small country. It's been essential for us forever. To work across borders, to have international trade and to work with our, our neighbors and so on. One of the very good examples of this, of the Danish notion of public-private partnerships is the, um, governments 14 climate partnerships.
So when we introduced our target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 70%, the governments that we can't do it alone, we need to include the leading industries and the companies, and we actually want to ask them, how do we. Come up with solutions so they can do it within the 14 leading industries in Denmark.
So that could be land transport, that could be waste handling, aviation, financing, and so on. So they each had a climate partnership coming up with tangible ideas and policies that would reduce their own footprint with, or their own emissions was 70%. So it's basically turning the policy, making upside down, asking the companies to come up with ideas for policy making.[00:05:00]
And they came up with a good 400 recommendations and most of them actually being translated into actual policies right now. So it's a very good example of how we include the businesses at an early stage and also secure buy-in. And you could say that some might. Ask, well, wouldn't this lead to corruption or conflict of interest?
Um, for us, we more see it as, as a way of securing long-term investment. So you also see, okay, if the government invests in wind as we did basically from the early seventies, or do we focus on green hydrogen? Well then we also have the pension funds on board. We have the asset managers, we have the technology providers and the innovators and the government that secures or that basically instills a long-term horizon for a new green technology area, area to uh, to mature.
Kiana: You were saying that you got into [00:06:00] this work from having done work internationally, and I'm curious kind of what perspective that's given you and what you hope that Denmark is able to show about sustainability and energy transitions to other regions of the world?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: I, I think we can lead by example. We can set up some very ambitious targets.
We can also, or we have, I think we have an obligation. Also to invest in, in technologies at an early stage as a rich in a developed society. And then of course, we need to ensure that, that, that these things, they're not profit is one thing. We, we will never do it. No one will ever do it if they don't make money on it.
And that's a simple fact. And that's fair enough. That's how it works. And I think that's how it should work too. But we also need to just. Be, be fully aware of the obligation to share our policy learnings, to share our collaborative ways [00:07:00] of doing things, and then help countries like I've, I've, I've been to Nepal for instance, and we help and or we did help, uh, the government there to set up infrastructure grid infrastructure, hydropower facilities.
To, uh, do upskilling in local, um, villages, for instance. That's just one example of how you do it. We also help the, the German government rolling out district heating, uh, which is on a, you could say higher, more structural level. Um, so we need to take international responsibility and we need to to be there where the action is happening.
Kiana: Absolutely. And every region has. A different set of challenges. You know, whether it be political, financial in terms of what resources are actu actually available, just historical context. There's different challenges and different opportunities in every region, but a lot of the technological [00:08:00] innovation can be used kind of across these different contexts.
So I'm wondering what technological innovations that are being worked on in Denmark. And I know there's many, but if there's some that you're feeling particularly excited about.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: We're very strong in this count counts for energy efficiency, renewables, particularly wind, and then within anything related to water management and the water issue, it's, I think it's clear to everyone that that's, uh that's acute. We need to really, really do something about that.
So if you look at, and I, I'm not an expert within, uh, water management, but you have, um, reducing, um, excess wastewater, for instance, uh, water efficiency in industries. And we have some companies that are like, uh, ?, which is one company that has helped Denmark reduce its water waste significantly.
I think we have a 70% water. Lots a waste in Denmark. Um, so that's an area where we really, really can, uh, can help. Then another area [00:09:00] is of green hydrogen and, uh, green fuels. We have a, um, strong focus on, um, of course harnessing the, uh, the natural powers that we have around Denmark in terms of, of wind. And turn that into green fuels for hard to electrify sectors.
So that's industry, but in particular, shipping and heavy land transport, aviation for that matter. We're investing heavily in, uh, in, in new technologies, but essentially also infrastructure that allows us to, uh, to produce green fuels and also to distribute it. So we're talking about having a pipeline from, uh, from Jutland going down to, to Germany because there's a lot of heavy industry in Germany.
So we can supply, uh, the German market and in future rest of the Europe also with, uh, green hydrogen fuels.
Kiana: These are huge projects
Magnus Højberg Mernild: mass ma, massive projects, and it takes years and years, of course, and a lot of political will. We also see that not only locally, but also with our, with [00:10:00] our, with our peers.
Peers and uh, and neighboring countries. So, um, mm-hmm things are really progressing, but of course we always wanted to go even faster.
Kiana: Can you speak to the importance of the connectivity between the grids here? With Sweden, Norway, Germany, and the UK we were talking about and how that is able to bolster the benefits of different renewable resources in each region.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: We have a relatively high share of renewables in our, in our energy mix in Denmark, and one of the reasons why we can also have a constant. Uh, supply of energy is the fact that we are connected to Norway, to Sweden, to uh, now we also connected to the UK to Poland and Germany and so on. It's the fact that they haven't, in Norway, they have hydro In Sweden, they have nuclear, we have wind and so on, so forth.
Nuclear in, in, in Germany as well. At least they did. So it allows us to use that fluctuation between the different energy sources constantly to ensure that we [00:11:00] have electricity coming out of the block. We have electricity in Denmark, 99 point. Nine something and it equals to half a second every now and again.
So no one feels it. And that is rather difficult to actually do when you have that high amount of electricity. And on good windy days, we have a hundred percent of the electricity coming out of the plug in Denmark, solely coming from renewables. So, uh, that connectivity with neighboring country is uh, crucial.
Kiana: That's fantastic. And goes back to that importance of kind of cross border collaboration, both on a like thought leadership innovation level and truly on a technical grid interconnectivity level. Um, and you're regionally advantageous that you have so many zero and low emission sources that can power the grid on that level.
How often is the grid [00:12:00] running solely on wind? Because I know that. The actual percentage of it's 43%... what are, those numbers?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: So that's the national energy range. Okay. National, yeah. Electricity is, is different. Right. I reckon we are about 70 some percent of electricity in Denmark coming from renewables last year.
So that's a, that's a pretty good amount. The hard parts are, of course, agriculture. It's, uh, transportation, it's heavy industry. So the overall number is mid forties. If you talk, talk about renewables in the energy mix, but electricity is, is, is a different fact and we often produce a hundred percent of that.
We even produce more, so we have to export it. One thing is that, you know, on a national level that you have to build out solar and wind, but um, you also need to have the political will to do it across borders I said before. And the incentives that you give turbine owners or owners of infrastructure investors has to sort of.
Tie in across the borders. Sometimes we have a [00:13:00] bottleneck between Denmark and Germany because you give incentives to local farmers to produce their own energy from wind farm. So that means we can't send it from Denmark down because even though we have excess at a low cost, it's still cheaper for a German farmer to produce his or her own energy.
So it goes to show that you need these. Regulations and incentive models to span across the entire EU, for instance, or the Nordic region or in the us across states for instance.
Kiana: Denmark has had a lot of firsts when it's come to the development of wind energy. Could you highlight what some of those firsts are?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Yeah, so we installed the fir world's first, uh, offshore wind farm, which is principle in near shore wind farm, but in the, in the early 1990s. Um, today it's considered a small project in the, in larger scale in or in compared to, to the, to the scale that we have today. We also have, um, just outside of Copenhagen, a place called Middelgrunden there you have [00:14:00] 20-- 20 20 megawatt turbines, and it was installed in we could 20 years ago.
Back then, it was the largest in the world. Um, 10,000 copenhageners have investigated, so. I usually say the wind turbines are prettier if you, uh, own them. 'cause you look at it and then you, first of all, you think, okay, I'm making a bit of money here and at the same time I'm feeding green energy to either my own household or to the, the society here.
And that's also been a, um, a way of thinking in Denmark that we need to include the residents. We need to include the local communities in investing in these projects. We have some of our islands, some sur uh, in particular upon is another good example where you really have local communities coming together, investing in green infrastructure in that case, uh, be it.
Now we are coming also with some, some power, two X facilities, but wind. So they actually all benefit from it, be it the farmer, [00:15:00] the local residents, the local, if you have some kind of industrial facilities. So, um, that part where you can secure local ownership is, uh, is very important.
Kiana: We hear so much about community solar, but I think at least in the US less about community wind.
So it's really great to see. Examples of these projects that have been around for quite some time and are successful and I think we could have more, more community wind projects. Um, because as you said, I think having ownership stake and kind of more the maximum amount of benefits a community can receive, whether it's from, you know, thousands of jobs that are being created or receiving discounted clean energy.
Um, and just like having that. Care in the community, right? To see the transformation in local energy systems is really important for having more support, [00:16:00] especially when wind often experiences a lot of nimbyism.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Definitely, definitely. On the other hand, you would also say that these are very, very small examples and they don't really push the needle.
Um, but, but, but the more people benefiting from the. From the transition in a, in a greener direction or decarbonization in general, I think the easier it is to also implement the policies and the regulations that really push the needle on it. Mm-hmm. So, uh, we shouldn't underestimate these local initiatives at, uh, at all.
Kiana: Absolutely. And I think, as we've said, sort of there's pushing the needle in terms of massive. Massive positive changes in terms of actual emissions reductions and transforming sectors. And then there's pushing the needle in terms of sort of thought leadership and having smaller examples that show what can potentially be done at larger scales.
And that's also important. Um, so yeah, I think there's kind of multiple benefits. [00:17:00] You mentioned before the two. Islands that are going to be energy hubs. Can you say more about what the vision is for these energy islands?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Yeah. So we have a vision in Denmark about creating a, um, the most well known is the energy hub in the, in the North Sea.
Mm-hmm. And the, the idea is that instead of having a one wind farm that's connected to the grid. Uh, in Denmark, we want to create a, a, a hub essentially that's connected to the surrounding countries. And going back to the fact that when you have fluctuating energy sources, it's good to be connected everywhere.
So if there is very little sun, uh, in, in Germany, for instance, and they, they're connected to the solar systems now, then you can actually ensure that most of the, the wind or the electricity coming in from these hops are. Distributed or, or, or transmitted to, uh, to, to Germany and so on. The other simple fact is that when [00:18:00] you do it a hundred kilometers from shore, you can have wind turbines at a much larger scale, and you can have at a much greater amount, of course.
So the potential in the North Sea is 150 gigawatts. And just to translate that into households that equals. The entire North Sea could power 230 million households with green electricity. So it just underlines the, uh, great, great, great potential that is only in the North Sea in Denmark. Then you have a, if you look at the, uh, the Baltic Sea, I think the energy potential or the wind potential is 93 gigawatts.
So we couldn't principle, if you look at Northern Europe power, large parts of, of Europe. With wind power from, uh, from this region. But again, then we also have to look into storage of course, because the wind is not always blowing, and that is, again, [00:19:00] hydrogen is, uh, is one example, but there are many ways to, uh, to do it.
Kiana: Interesting. So hydrogen is the. Do you feel it's the primary mode of storage that Denmark is investing in? Or how is that balancing out with other forms of storage?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Yeah, of course. It's, it's one of them. And we also see a potential future, potential market. And it goes back to, uh, to what we talk about before, that you have shipping, shipping account for 3% of global emissions. We need to find a way to decarbonize shipping. We need to find a way to decarbonize aviation.
Kiana: Yes.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: And greener fuels is something we have to come up with. So if we can really make use of that natural resource that wind this, then um, there's a great potential there.
Kiana: Going back to the energy islands, just kind of, I'm trying to map out, mentally picture the vision here. So you have a small island, sometimes [00:20:00] natural. You have one example of the one that's, what is the name of the one that's going to be artificial?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: The North. The North Sea Energy Hub. Okay.
Kiana: The North Sea Energy Hub. So the vision is that you have a large amount of offshore wind and then on the island with significance amounts of transmission to multiple countries.
There sort thereby like maximizing the benefits to the grid. Um, and then you also are going to have. Desalinization present for the operations.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: That's, that's one model, right? So we, we, we are looking at very various options for it. Okay. One is that you actually have power to X facilities out there. Mm-hmm. In order for you to use the energy straightaway and turn it into green fuels on the spot.
So the ships you have coming in, they can use it as a bunkering hub for green fuels. Instead of sending the, the power in, feed it to the, to the local grid or feed it into [00:21:00] the shore. And then of course you have some kind of loss. I don't know the percentage, but you have, you will always have a loss of energy.
So to minimize that, you can produce it. Out on the energy island, but this is still something that's, it's an ongoing debate on how to do it. And which kind of fundamental do you do, do you go with, how big should it be? Um, and of course it will take, uh, some time to, to to figure out how we, how we do it.
But it's been an ongoing debate in Denmark for, for a couple of years now, and we have several, um. Companies and investors willing to, to go into the project and it's nearly 50. The Danish government will have a majority part of the, uh, of the entire project. I think just, just above 50%.
Kiana: We were talking about the North Sea and the planned continuing planned offshore wind development and energy hubs.
But I also know that Denmark does offshore drilling for oil and [00:22:00] gas, uh, in the North Sea. But has pledged to stop by 2050, which seems a bit far. I'm just kind of curious in the context of energy security and the country's national energy mix, like how you're thinking about sort of the role of the oil industry, what that looks like in the future.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: If you just have a hard stop and a hard no to anything that's fossil, you'll have a massive gap in your, in your energy mix and your energy supply. So we have this, uh, this goal of stop extraction any oil and gas from loss in, uh, 2050 following the invasion of Ukraine. We had. Gas field that we reopened, but otherwise we are just letting all the contracts face out and the projects face out.
So it's also a matter of ensuring that all the companies and industries that are already heavily invested in this, they don't just go bankrupt overnight. 'cause we have responsibility [00:23:00] to actually keep people with jobs within oil and gas to keep them, uh, occupied and keep them employed. So one way of doing it is to say, okay, how can you then.
Translate their skills into the new industries. That will also happen. So that could be carbon capture using old oil and oil, especially gas fields to actually store carbon in in the future. So there is a social responsibility on one side. And then there's the fact that we just need to have some sort of a smooth transition.
We've seen in Germany, they were probably also a little bit too early in closing down their nuclear facilities, um, which left the gas that, uh, left the gap gap that they had to fill up with gas, for instance. Mm-hmm. And we see that many places. So the best way of doing it is to do it in a sensible and in a smooth way so you don't end up anyone.
Left without access to Uh, yeah, to energy, essentially, because otherwise we can't run our industries or our societies.
Kiana: Of course. [00:24:00] And are there programs to help transition transferable skills, for example, between traditional energy industries and emerging ones?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Yeah. So we have a, a longstanding tradition of working very closely between the, the government and the unions, uh, the labor market and the, uh, the workers themselves.
A good example is, uh, the port of Esbjerg on the west coast of Denmark. It used to be a fishery port for many, many years, one of the biggest in Northern Europe. Then it turned into be an oil and gas port. Today it's the world leading, um, port in terms of shipping out wind turbine equipment and renewable equipment to the rest of the Europe that has been basically ensuring that.
The old fishermen and the old oil and gas workers, they also got jobs in the new industries. And that's something we do closely with the, uh, labor organizations and the local municipality there and ensure that we have the right education available for them.
Kiana: That's a great example of [00:25:00] seeing that transition happen.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: And we also recent, there was a couple of years ago, a study in Denmark showing that, and this might be different depending on local context, but that for every time we install one giga gigawatt of, uh, offshore in, in Denmark. It actually creates four 14,000, 600 jobs across different, um, sectors of course.
Kiana: That's a lot of jobs. That's fantastic.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: That's a lot of jobs. So there's a great potential there that's, uh, ready to be, uh, to be harvested.
Kiana: Absolutely. I was telling you that last time I was in Denmark seven years ago, I was taking a renewable energy course and had the opportunity to climb a small onshore wind turbine, which was a very cool experience and I've.
Ruled out wind turbine technician as a job for me because I don't love heights, but still a very cool experience. So it's great that there's so many jobs that, so depending on your interests and skills, you can find a different way to be, be a part of the industry.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: I'm sure that was probably one of the smaller ones, so Oh, definitely.[00:26:00]
So the ones we see today, they are even taller. Yeah.
Kiana: I am grateful for. The technicians who are willing to go to the top.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: They're, they're doing a fantastic job.
Kiana: Absolutely. Here at the State of Green office where we are, you host delegations from around the world. Have there been moments in this job that have left you feeling really inspired, whether it's from.
Innovation and projects happening within Denmark, or just having the opportunity to talk with people all from all around the world about sustainability. I'm sure that there's been. Moments of learning and, and inspiration that you've experienced.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: As one of the, the beauties about having this job that we, we host around 250 delegations yearly.
Everything from, uh, from, from prime ministers to engineers, to investors, to journalists and so on. Everyone has, and, [00:27:00] uh. Expertise within a field, and everyone is really, really passionate about this. So for us, we learned so much, be it, um, from, from South Korean, uh, investors looking at, uh, investing in yeah, in, in, in Wind, be it, um, representatives from a, from a, uh, German municipality looking to, um.
Introduce district heating. Um, it's just fascinating to see that no matter where in the world people come from, they're really, really passionate about this and they want to do it, and it just underlines the fact that we really need to, to, to share our lessons and to work together. Um, I would say that, um.
We have a lot of, uh, a whole lot of people coming from the, from the us. Um, we've had a significant share actually looking at the port infrastructure also relating to, [00:28:00] uh, to, to wind. And you can really see that, um, the potential in the us. I think the will is there, the potential is there. Of course, we are ready to, to lean in and do what we can, but it's just on a totally different scale compared to what we do in, uh, in this little country.
And as I said before, we have an obligation mm-hmm. To, to share also what we did wrong. All some of the policies that didn't work out and, uh, some of these incentives that might not, uh, be, be feasible or translatable to, to other countries. So, um, we, we we're doing our share and then we learn. An abundance of, of things from, uh, from other people all over the world.
And it also helps us get better. Uh, yes, because we, we, we also clearly need to, uh, to improve what we are doing, doing here. And, um, these national efforts that you either do in, uh, in the US or in Denmark or in South Africa, Korea, they should be the ones, uh, [00:29:00] leading the, uh, the transition elsewhere. So, um, the more, the better, better.
Kiana: What's bringing you joy in your work?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: I think it's fascinating to meet, to meet people from all over the world and discuss some of the, um, the challenges that, that, that you have in your local community. So it's every, every time I meet someone, it's an eyeopener. Um, and it doesn't necessarily have to be on a technology aspect.
It's also just how do you, uh, discuss these topics in your local communities, uh, in your local households with your friends? How do you go about it in, in, in school? So you meet. A great amount of passionate people, people who want to change things, and that, um, just gives us a, a spark of energy, which is, uh, which is fantastic.
Kiana: I agree. I, I feel the same way. So truly a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to
Magnus Højberg Mernild: No, anytime.
Kiana: Speak with me. And if people wanna learn more [00:30:00] about the work of State of Green, where can they go?
Magnus Højberg Mernild: Well, they can go to state of green.com and we have. Thousands of solutions, uh, white papers, podcast episodes, video material, text describing, uh, everything from very, very technical solutions in Denmark to, uh, an overall approach of how do you, uh, compile a partnership between, uh, private, uh, partners and, uh, the public sector.
So it's a library of, uh, of Danish solutions and, uh, ideas from the last 50 years. So, uh. And it's free to all. And uh, we really hope that it can inspire at least, uh, a little bit of progress somewhere.
Kiana: Fantastic. Well check out State of Green's website for more information and resources about the Danish energy transition.
Thank you so much, Magnus. A pleasure.
Magnus Højberg Mernild: You're always welcome.
Kiana: Thank you for listening. Climate with Kiana is co-produced by Kiana Michaan and Lucy Little. This [00:31:00] episode was edited by Maxfield Biggs. Theme music by Naima Mackrel. Thank you again to the Clean Energy Leadership Institute for their support. This podcast is recorded and produced in New York City on unceded Lenape land.
If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend. Leave a comment and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. For more information about the guests and topics discussed, please visit climate with kiana.com. Until the next time, stay joyous.